LibLime Thoughts LibLime (a division of PTFS) is disappointed to learn that the HLT Koha Committee has chosen to cancel our scheduled conference call. We thought that we would discuss issues important to the ongoing development of Koha and that we would form a partnership that would permit us to work together globally to build a better open source ILS solution for libraries. LibLime wants to assume the best and understands that the HLT Committee is new to business matters, acquisitions, and financial transactions on the scale required to move the Koha project to the next level. Perhaps the newness of these experiences has resulted in their one-sided point of view; their conflicting and inaccurate web posts; and their decision to participate in a conference call, only to decline it the next day. The PTFS acquisition of LibLime *will* take the Koha project to the next level by utilizing agile software development and systems engineering methodologies. Working closely with libraries, this effort will result in advancing Koha into the ultimate open source ILS solution. We will support Koha through the koha.org website and we will continue to work towards our goal of developing and deploying a true next generation system that manages both print and digital collections in a single application. We are asking for participants from Koha libraries that may want to partner with us to maintain documentation, design new development features, catalog bug issues, and promote Koha successes world-wide. If you are ready to help build a better Koha please contact ksherman@ptfs.com. Kelly Sherman [image: cid:image001.jpg@01C93493.7636F5C0] Progressive Technology Federal Systems, Inc. 6400 Goldsboro Rd., Suite 200 Bethesda, MD 20817 301-654-8088, ext. 176 301-654-5789 (fax) http://www.ptfs.com
Sending out condescending emails about the body that was just created to represent all Koha users isn't a good strategy for establishing trust with community. 2010/4/29 Kelly Sherman <ksherman@ptfs.com>
LibLime Thoughts
LibLime (a division of PTFS) is disappointed to learn that the HLT Koha Committee has chosen to cancel our scheduled conference call. We thought that we would discuss issues important to the ongoing development of Koha and that we would form a partnership that would permit us to work together globally to build a better open source ILS solution for libraries.
LibLime wants to assume the best and understands that the HLT Committee is new to business matters, acquisitions, and financial transactions on the scale required to move the Koha project to the next level. Perhaps the newness of these experiences has resulted in their one-sided point of view; their conflicting and inaccurate web posts; and their decision to participate in a conference call, only to decline it the next day.
The PTFS acquisition of LibLime *will* take the Koha project to the next level by utilizing agile software development and systems engineering methodologies. Working closely with libraries, this effort will result in advancing Koha into the ultimate open source ILS solution.
We will support Koha through the koha.org website and we will continue to work towards our goal of developing and deploying a true next generation system that manages both print and digital collections in a single application. We are asking for participants from Koha libraries that may want to partner with us to maintain documentation, design new development features, catalog bug issues, and promote Koha successes world-wide. If you are ready to help build a better Koha please contact ksherman@ptfs.com .
Kelly Sherman
[image: cid:image001.jpg@01C93493.7636F5C0]
Progressive Technology Federal Systems, Inc.
6400 Goldsboro Rd., Suite 200
Bethesda, MD 20817
301-654-8088, ext. 176
301-654-5789 (fax)
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Two things. With the blog post on the koha-community site and this email and comments from the community I am not seeing two parties trying to work together. PTFS - is a company and has run on a corporate model - they "purchased" assets so they need to decide how to handle those assets. In that same concept the community WANTS some of those assets so I don't think these discussions on the list are going to help us gain what we all want. A system we can all work together to make better. If all of these people were sitting in a room together they would have been able to work this out, but due to distance and time communication is harder to achieve.
From my understanding the HLT committee had agreed to a phone call which is more along the standard communication in which PTFS was comfortable but backed out. At which point things started to degrade and positions started to be posted on the web to the community.
I know this doesn't look like a business transaction, but for PTFS it is and that is how they have known how to do business in the past. They will need to become comfortable in talking and working with the community but it can't happen over night. The LibLime purchase has only been about a month or a little more, we need to work together to resolve our differences to come to a common understanding. I hope both parties read this and can pull back rethink how this will be approached and try again. We are all very attached to this emotionally so we need to be careful on how we react to postings and emails in a professional manner. I would hate to see this return to the situation we had 8 months ago. At least PTFS was willing to talk with HLT which is more than we had gotten previously. David Schuster Sherman, Kelly wrote:
LibLime Thoughts
LibLime (a division of PTFS) is disappointed to learn that the HLT Koha Committee has chosen to cancel our scheduled conference call. We thought that we would discuss issues important to the ongoing development of Koha and that we would form a partnership that would permit us to work together globally to build a better open source ILS solution for libraries.
LibLime wants to assume the best and understands that the HLT Committee is new to business matters, acquisitions, and financial transactions on the scale required to move the Koha project to the next level. Perhaps the newness of these experiences has resulted in their one-sided point of view; their conflicting and inaccurate web posts; and their decision to participate in a conference call, only to decline it the next day.
The PTFS acquisition of LibLime *will* take the Koha project to the next level by utilizing agile software development and systems engineering methodologies. Working closely with libraries, this effort will result in advancing Koha into the ultimate open source ILS solution.
We will support Koha through the koha.org website and we will continue to work towards our goal of developing and deploying a true next generation system that manages both print and digital collections in a single application. We are asking for participants from Koha libraries that may want to partner with us to maintain documentation, design new development features, catalog bug issues, and promote Koha successes world-wide. If you are ready to help build a better Koha please contact ksherman@ptfs.com.
Kelly Sherman
[image: cid:image001.jpg@01C93493.7636F5C0]
Progressive Technology Federal Systems, Inc.
6400 Goldsboro Rd., Suite 200
Bethesda, MD 20817
301-654-8088, ext. 176
301-654-5789 (fax)
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/LibLime-Thoughts-tp28406334p28408593.html Sent from the Koha - Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of David Schuster Sent: Friday, 30 April 2010 3:12 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime Thoughts
Two things.
With the blog post on the koha-community site and this email and comments from the community I am not seeing two parties trying to work together.
PTFS - is a company and has run on a corporate model - they "purchased" assets so they need to decide how to handle those assets. In that same concept the community WANTS some of those assets so I don't think these discussions on the list are going to help us gain what we all want. A system we can all work together to make better.
If all of these people were sitting in a room together they would have been able to work this out, but due to distance and time communication is harder to achieve.
From my understanding the HLT committee had agreed to a phone call which is more along the standard communication in which PTFS was comfortable but backed out. At which point things started to degrade and positions started to be posted on the web to the community.
I know this doesn't look like a business transaction, but for PTFS it is and that is how they have known how to do business in the past. They will need to become comfortable in talking and working with the community but it can't happen over night.
The LibLime purchase has only been about a month or a little more, we need to work together to resolve our differences to come to a common understanding.
I hope both parties read this and can pull back rethink how this will be approached and try again. We are all very attached to this emotionally so we need to be careful on how we react to postings and emails in a professional manner. I would hate to see this return to the situation we had 8 months ago. At least PTFS was willing to talk with HLT which is more than we had gotten previously.
David Schuster
Sherman, Kelly wrote:
LibLime Thoughts
LibLime (a division of PTFS) is disappointed to learn that the HLT Koha Committee has chosen to cancel our scheduled conference call. We
David, Thank you for a thoughtful post. There are a number of aspects to this. I don't want to bore readers of the list with lengthy arguments. As a member of the committee I had agreed to a meeting on Friday night (Sydney time). I then learnt that the meeting was to be at 6am on Saturday my time. That was not practical for me and I apologised. Concurrently there was an exchange about agenda and the committee generally drew back. The invitation to dialogue remains open as the post to koha-community.org states. Please bear in mind the limited role of the Committee (it is a Committee of Horowhenua Library Trust, not of the community as such). It has little bearing on the established methods for participating in the Koha community. These are and remain open to PTFS, Liblime or whoever. Open (fortunately, in my opinion) means open. Regards, Bob Birchall thought
that we would discuss issues important to the ongoing development of Koha and that we would form a partnership that would permit us to work together globally to build a better open source ILS solution for libraries.
LibLime wants to assume the best and understands that the HLT Committee is new to business matters, acquisitions, and financial transactions on the scale required to move the Koha project to the next level. Perhaps the newness of these experiences has resulted in their one-sided point of view; their conflicting and inaccurate web posts; and their decision to participate in a conference call, only to decline it the next day.
The PTFS acquisition of LibLime *will* take the Koha project to the next level by utilizing agile software development and systems engineering methodologies. Working closely with libraries, this effort will result in advancing Koha into the ultimate open source ILS solution.
We will support Koha through the koha.org website and we will continue to work towards our goal of developing and deploying a true next generation system that manages both print and digital collections in a single application. We are asking for participants from Koha libraries that may want to partner with us to maintain documentation, design new development features, catalog bug issues, and promote Koha successes world-wide. If you are ready to help build a better Koha please contact ksherman@ptfs.com.
Kelly Sherman
[image: cid:image001.jpg@01C93493.7636F5C0]
Progressive Technology Federal Systems, Inc.
6400 Goldsboro Rd., Suite 200
Bethesda, MD 20817
301-654-8088, ext. 176
301-654-5789 (fax)
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/LibLime-Thoughts- tp28406334p28408593.html Sent from the Koha - Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
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David Schuster <dschust1@tx.rr.com> wrote:
If all of these people were sitting in a room together they would have been able to work this out, but due to distance and time communication is harder to achieve.
I don't think distance and time are the problems here. It's more the mentality. software.coop has bought and sold across timezones and distances from Australia to western Canada without serious problems (well, except the US stone-age banking systems), using email, IRC, telephones and more. I doubt the HLT committee are thicker than me. [...]
I know this doesn't look like a business transaction, but for PTFS it is and that is how they have known how to do business in the past. They will need to become comfortable in talking and working with the community but it can't happen over night.
We must not let our Koha community become a business transaction. The community is not something to be bought and sold itself. We must make it independent in perpetuity, don't you think? This is not how to do business with a volunteer community, with NDAs, nighttime conference calls so long that they have agendas and secret approaches to individual participants. I'm not sure it's ever a good way to do business, personally. Whether PTFS becomes comfortable with that is a matter for them. We can show the horse to water, but we cannot force it to drink. [...]
I hope both parties read this and can pull back rethink how this will be approached and try again. We are all very attached to this emotionally so we need to be careful on how we react to postings and emails in a professional manner. I would hate to see this return to the situation we had 8 months ago. At least PTFS was willing to talk with HLT which is more than we had gotten previously.
Professional is overrated - passionate is better. At its core, a professional is someone who professes something because they are paid to do so, a lawyer or advocate being the classic example. I prefer working with people who believe in what they're doing, even if I don't agree with them, rather than an organisation doing things for the money. We should still be polite and civil, though. I think the acquisition of LibLime has set us further back than 8 months ago. In terms of community, we're just a little further on from where we were 16 months ago. Happily, the software has continued moving forwards. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster and LMS developer at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op
As an ordinary mortal and end user of Koha w/ no programming skills at all... We bought into Koha via LL as an open source product. We specifically did this to avoid the problems of legacy systems and because we were and are fully in support of the open source concept. We went with LL because we do not have the capability of hosting and troubleshooting a system on our own. We were most unhappy with the direction that LL took after selling us what they clearly stated to be an open source product, and which our contract clearly states as well. But we were very hopeful when PTFS purchased LL that the situation would improve and that the obviously forked product could begin its journey back into the community. Based on this email exchange, I think our hope was and is misplaced... unfortunately. It isn't just programmers and/or developers on this list; there are end users as well. While we rarely if ever post, we do read. And this is not reading well. ________________________________________ From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of MJ Ray [mjr@phonecoop.coop] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 5:46 AM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime Thoughts David Schuster <dschust1@tx.rr.com> wrote:
If all of these people were sitting in a room together they would have been able to work this out, but due to distance and time communication is harder to achieve.
I don't think distance and time are the problems here. It's more the mentality. software.coop has bought and sold across timezones and distances from Australia to western Canada without serious problems (well, except the US stone-age banking systems), using email, IRC, telephones and more. I doubt the HLT committee are thicker than me. [...]
I know this doesn't look like a business transaction, but for PTFS it is and that is how they have known how to do business in the past. They will need to become comfortable in talking and working with the community but it can't happen over night.
We must not let our Koha community become a business transaction. The community is not something to be bought and sold itself. We must make it independent in perpetuity, don't you think? This is not how to do business with a volunteer community, with NDAs, nighttime conference calls so long that they have agendas and secret approaches to individual participants. I'm not sure it's ever a good way to do business, personally. Whether PTFS becomes comfortable with that is a matter for them. We can show the horse to water, but we cannot force it to drink. [...]
I hope both parties read this and can pull back rethink how this will be approached and try again. We are all very attached to this emotionally so we need to be careful on how we react to postings and emails in a professional manner. I would hate to see this return to the situation we had 8 months ago. At least PTFS was willing to talk with HLT which is more than we had gotten previously.
Professional is overrated - passionate is better. At its core, a professional is someone who professes something because they are paid to do so, a lawyer or advocate being the classic example. I prefer working with people who believe in what they're doing, even if I don't agree with them, rather than an organisation doing things for the money. We should still be polite and civil, though. I think the acquisition of LibLime has set us further back than 8 months ago. In terms of community, we're just a little further on from where we were 16 months ago. Happily, the software has continued moving forwards. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster and LMS developer at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Kudos, Joanna, for speaking up as a LL/PTFS customer! It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific points addressed in this post. Surely an NDA is not part of a standard service contract. 2010/4/30 Joanna Hause <jhause@seuniversity.edu>
As an ordinary mortal and end user of Koha w/ no programming skills at all...
We bought into Koha via LL as an open source product. We specifically did this to avoid the problems of legacy systems and because we were and are fully in support of the open source concept. We went with LL because we do not have the capability of hosting and troubleshooting a system on our own. We were most unhappy with the direction that LL took after selling us what they clearly stated to be an open source product, and which our contract clearly states as well. But we were very hopeful when PTFS purchased LL that the situation would improve and that the obviously forked product could begin its journey back into the community. Based on this email exchange, I think our hope was and is misplaced... unfortunately.
It isn't just programmers and/or developers on this list; there are end users as well. While we rarely if ever post, we do read. And this is not reading well.
________________________________________ From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of MJ Ray [mjr@phonecoop.coop] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 5:46 AM
To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime Thoughts
David Schuster <dschust1@tx.rr.com> wrote:
If all of these people were sitting in a room together they would have been able to work this out, but due to distance and time communication is harder to achieve.
I don't think distance and time are the problems here. It's more the mentality. software.coop has bought and sold across timezones and distances from Australia to western Canada without serious problems (well, except the US stone-age banking systems), using email, IRC, telephones and more. I doubt the HLT committee are thicker than me.
[...]
I know this doesn't look like a business transaction, but for PTFS it is and that is how they have known how to do business in the past. They will need to become comfortable in talking and working with the community but it can't happen over night.
We must not let our Koha community become a business transaction. The community is not something to be bought and sold itself. We must make it independent in perpetuity, don't you think?
This is not how to do business with a volunteer community, with NDAs, nighttime conference calls so long that they have agendas and secret approaches to individual participants. I'm not sure it's ever a good way to do business, personally.
Whether PTFS becomes comfortable with that is a matter for them. We can show the horse to water, but we cannot force it to drink.
[...]
I hope both parties read this and can pull back rethink how this will be approached and try again. We are all very attached to this emotionally so we need to be careful on how we react to postings and emails in a professional manner. I would hate to see this return to the situation we had 8 months ago. At least PTFS was willing to talk with HLT which is more than we had gotten previously.
Professional is overrated - passionate is better. At its core, a professional is someone who professes something because they are paid to do so, a lawyer or advocate being the classic example. I prefer working with people who believe in what they're doing, even if I don't agree with them, rather than an organisation doing things for the money.
We should still be polite and civil, though.
I think the acquisition of LibLime has set us further back than 8 months ago. In terms of community, we're just a little further on from where we were 16 months ago. Happily, the software has continued moving forwards.
Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster and LMS developer at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Chris Nighswonger <cnighswonger@foundations.edu>
It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific points addressed in this post. Surely an NDA is not part of a standard service contract.
Indeed, it would be a fascinating insight and thanks to those who have shared on the list and elsewhere. All NDAs that I've seen specifically prevented the signatory from disclosing that they signed one, so we'll only get silence if an NDA *is* part of some terms. :-/ (Before software.coop, I co-owned a FOSS-inspired start-up in the dot-com bubble time and many players in that market loved NDAs.) Feeling a lot happier after some reflection, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster and LMS developer at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op
It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific points addressed in this post.
That would be us, among many others. I suspect that most PTFS libraries are simply trying to process what this means for them. And unfortunately, I also suspect that many may feel there is relatively little to be gained by responding in public. If they support PTFS's position, a public defense would put them in the cross-hairs, a difficult position to be in considering they don't know all the facts. If they don't support it, they will most likely seek to open a dialog with PTFS directly, or to simply bide their time until such time as they're in a position to migrate to another vendor. No point in annoying someone who may be in a position to make your life very difficult. Not saying which category we fall under :-) Best, Cab Vinton, Director Sanbornton Public Library Sanbornton, NH
+1,000,000 to Cab Vinton Josh Westbrook Prescott Library Mngr/District Technology Mngr Walla Walla County Rural Library District joshw@wwrurallibrary.com http://www.wwrurallibrary.com On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Cab Vinton <bibliwho@gmail.com> wrote:
It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific points addressed in this post.
That would be us, among many others.
I suspect that most PTFS libraries are simply trying to process what this means for them. And unfortunately, I also suspect that many may feel there is relatively little to be gained by responding in public.
If they support PTFS's position, a public defense would put them in the cross-hairs, a difficult position to be in considering they don't know all the facts.
If they don't support it, they will most likely seek to open a dialog with PTFS directly, or to simply bide their time until such time as they're in a position to migrate to another vendor. No point in annoying someone who may be in a position to make your life very difficult.
Not saying which category we fall under :-)
Best,
Cab Vinton, Director Sanbornton Public Library Sanbornton, NH _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
If I were a LL/PTFS customer and valued being in an open source community, I would be talking to different service providers about what it would take to migrate my data to the current community supported version. Just sayin'. Lori Ayre On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Cab Vinton <bibliwho@gmail.com> wrote:
It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific points addressed in this post.
That would be us, among many others.
I suspect that most PTFS libraries are simply trying to process what this means for them. And unfortunately, I also suspect that many may feel there is relatively little to be gained by responding in public.
If they support PTFS's position, a public defense would put them in the cross-hairs, a difficult position to be in considering they don't know all the facts.
If they don't support it, they will most likely seek to open a dialog with PTFS directly, or to simply bide their time until such time as they're in a position to migrate to another vendor. No point in annoying someone who may be in a position to make your life very difficult.
Not saying which category we fall under :-)
Best,
Cab Vinton, Director Sanbornton Public Library Sanbornton, NH _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
To be fair, staff at PTFS, who is now our Koha support vendor, have made contributions to community Koha (both new development and bug fixes). Let's remember that it is LibLime Enterprise Koha that was forking from community Koha, not PTFS. PTFS now has responsibility for the 100+ Koha development projects sponsored by SCLS. It is our intent that 100% of these projects will be contributed to community Koha. Despite the unfortunately worded email yesterday, it is my belief that PTFS has no problem with doing so and must do so as stipulated in our contract. Furthermore, we are working with the excellent migration staff at LibLime (and now PTFS) to migrate our data. It is a complex data migration and we are quite happy with the work done so far. We chose Koha because we placed a high value on being part of an open source community. We are still very much committed to the Koha open source community and appreciate the work that has been done before us, the work that is being done and the work yet to come. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Lori Ayre <loriayre@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were a LL/PTFS customer and valued being in an open source community, I would be talking to different service providers about what it would take to migrate my data to the current community supported version. Just sayin'.
Lori Ayre
It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Cab Vinton <bibliwho@gmail.com> wrote: points
addressed in this post.
That would be us, among many others.
I suspect that most PTFS libraries are simply trying to process what this means for them. And unfortunately, I also suspect that many may feel there is relatively little to be gained by responding in public.
If they support PTFS's position, a public defense would put them in the cross-hairs, a difficult position to be in considering they don't know all the facts.
If they don't support it, they will most likely seek to open a dialog with PTFS directly, or to simply bide their time until such time as they're in a position to migrate to another vendor. No point in annoying someone who may be in a position to make your life very difficult.
Not saying which category we fall under :-)
Best,
Cab Vinton, Director Sanbornton Public Library Sanbornton, NH _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Vicki Teal Lovely Helping our 52 member libraries provide the best possible service to the public. ILS Project Manager South Central Library System Madison, WI vtl@scls.lib.wi.us (608)242-4713
Thanks Vicky, That's a good perspective to hear! Lori On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:52 PM, vtl@scls.lib.wi.us <vtl@scls.lib.wi.us> wrote:
To be fair, staff at PTFS, who is now our Koha support vendor, have made contributions to community Koha (both new development and bug fixes). Let's remember that it is LibLime Enterprise Koha that was forking from community Koha, not PTFS.
PTFS now has responsibility for the 100+ Koha development projects sponsored by SCLS. It is our intent that 100% of these projects will be contributed to community Koha. Despite the unfortunately worded email yesterday, it is my belief that PTFS has no problem with doing so and must do so as stipulated in our contract.
Furthermore, we are working with the excellent migration staff at LibLime (and now PTFS) to migrate our data. It is a complex data migration and we are quite happy with the work done so far.
We chose Koha because we placed a high value on being part of an open source community. We are still very much committed to the Koha open source community and appreciate the work that has been done before us, the work that is being done and the work yet to come.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Lori Ayre <loriayre@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were a LL/PTFS customer and valued being in an open source community, I would be talking to different service providers about what it would take to migrate my data to the current community supported version. Just sayin'.
Lori Ayre
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Cab Vinton <bibliwho@gmail.com> wrote:
It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific points addressed in this post.
That would be us, among many others.
I suspect that most PTFS libraries are simply trying to process what this means for them. And unfortunately, I also suspect that many may feel there is relatively little to be gained by responding in public.
If they support PTFS's position, a public defense would put them in the cross-hairs, a difficult position to be in considering they don't know all the facts.
If they don't support it, they will most likely seek to open a dialog with PTFS directly, or to simply bide their time until such time as they're in a position to migrate to another vendor. No point in annoying someone who may be in a position to make your life very difficult.
Not saying which category we fall under :-)
Best,
Cab Vinton, Director Sanbornton Public Library Sanbornton, NH _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Vicki Teal Lovely
Helping our 52 member libraries provide the best possible service to the public.
ILS Project Manager South Central Library System Madison, WI vtl@scls.lib.wi.us (608)242-4713
It would be good to hear from more LL/PTFS customers on the specific
Ditto from here to what Cab wrote. The decision to go Koha thru PTFS was made here before I was hired but I'm told that we went with PTFS because 'the other vendors we approached never really responded.' I've been here less than 2 months and am therefore still learning my way into the ways of Koha and of PTFS, but without much background (or excess baggage) to use as a standard of judgment. Our catalog also doesn't go 'live' for several months yet as we are converting from a card catalog. That said, I'd add that so far we're pretty much happy with the way we've been treated, and that I'm following these emails closely as an open source supporter. Kurt Bodling George Washington's Mount Vernon Estate Virginia, USA -----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Cab Vinton Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 1:53 PM To: Chris Nighswonger Cc: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime Thoughts points
addressed in this post.
That would be us, among many others. I suspect that most PTFS libraries are simply trying to process what this means for them. And unfortunately, I also suspect that many may feel there is relatively little to be gained by responding in public. If they support PTFS's position, a public defense would put them in the cross-hairs, a difficult position to be in considering they don't know all the facts. If they don't support it, they will most likely seek to open a dialog with PTFS directly, or to simply bide their time until such time as they're in a position to migrate to another vendor. No point in annoying someone who may be in a position to make your life very difficult. Not saying which category we fall under :-) Best, Cab Vinton, Director Sanbornton Public Library Sanbornton, NH _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
As the CEO of one of the many Koha vendor companies, I want to make known my position on this matter. PTFS hasn't been chosen by the Koha community to 'move the Koha project to the next level'. On the other hand, HLT Koha Committee has been elected by the Koha community to ask, since months, to Liblime and then PTFS to hand back Koha assets that belong to the community. This demand is neither a 'business' discussion nor a 'one-sided' demand, it's the clear and legitimate will expressed by the Koha community as a whole. If PTFS doesn't fully understand the open source rules, they can ask. A lot of distinguished members of the Koha community would be pleased to explain them to PTFS, to pursue further explanations. It has be proved that open source rules are perfectly compliant with business rules. If PTFS doesn't want to play the open source game, or if PTFS wants to fork Koha, it must be said clearly. I may resume my position as: sharing with PTFS: yes, forking with PTFS: no thanks. Regards, -- Frédéric DEMIANS http://www.tamil.fr/u/fdemians.html
Frederic Demians wrote:
PTFS hasn't been chosen by the Koha community to 'move the Koha project to the next level'.
Quoting from the "LibLime Thoughts" ... The PTFS acquisition of LibLime will take the Koha project to the next level by utilizing agile software development and systems engineering methodologies. That is a big presumption on someone's part. It is not a trivial matter to corral a herd of programmers and foist agile development techniques upon them. It would take some fundamental changes to the way Koha is developed, etc.etc.etc. Such a change *must* be raised with the Koha user and development communities for discussion and further evaluation. I would have thought we first need our very own benevolent dictator before even conceiving a move towards system engineering techniques. Such a dictator would clearly need to avoid any perception of a conflict of interests.
I may resume my position as: sharing with PTFS: yes, forking with PTFS: no thanks.
Bien sure! cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. -- Arthur C. Clarke
Kelly Sherman <ksherman@ptfs.com> wrote:
LibLime (a division of PTFS) is disappointed to learn that the HLT Koha Committee has chosen to cancel our scheduled conference call. [...]
http://koha-community.org/hlt-koha-committee-report-on-discussions-with-ptfs... is another view of that which doesn't completely agree with the above interpretation, in case anyone hasn't seen that yet.
We are asking for participants from Koha libraries that may want to partner with us to maintain documentation, design new development features, catalog bug issues, and promote Koha successes world-wide. [...]
As a worker-owner of for-service Koha user/vendor software.coop, I feel it's not credible for one private-sector Koha vendor to try to call itself an alternative to a not-for-profit community structure hosted by Koha's parent library trust and supported by most other Koha vendors and a lot of users. If anyone wants to donate to LibLime's single-entity effort, please do, but make sure that your contributions are available for the whole community to use. The danger is that contibutions will be limited to LL/PTFS due to unclear or missing licensing, or stuck in systems that don't export their data easily. Some users have spent over a year working to recover some documentation from unclear licensing in a poorly-structured LL-hosted system and I would be very happy if the Koha community never needed to do that again. I feel it would be better to take part in the main project to maintain documentation, design Koha, track bugs and promote successes (email me, Chris, your vendor or the list if you want a hand getting started), but everyone should be free to make their own decision. If you're undecided, please try taking part in the online meetings, at the conferences and generally in the community. If you're decided, please choose to work with good community participants (compare http://koha-community.org/support/paid-support/ with those whose owners appear on the lists, as a rough guide) and avoid cuckoo companies who try to replace the community effort.
LibLime wants to assume the best and understands that the HLT Committee is new to business matters, acquisitions, and financial transactions on the scale required to move the Koha project to the next level. Perhaps the newness of these experiences has resulted in their one-sided point of view; their conflicting and inaccurate web posts; and their decision to participate in a conference call, only to decline it the next day.
I really don't get this. How is it assuming the best to insult them as newbies? The HLT Committee contains members from companies which are as old as PTFS and three times as old as LibLime. I suspect the problem is that PTFS is new at working with structured community companies and tried to bounce it like it was a US corporation. For example, asking a civil society group to sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) is highly unusual. It is almost never in the community interest to sign them, so community companies and trusts very rarely do. NDAs hinder reporting and oversight. NDAs also have a particularly notorious place in the free software story. See the first section of http://mjr.towers.org.uk/writing/fss which are (buggy) notes from a talk I gave in 2003. That's FOSS 101. I think it shows the HLT Koha Committee's business wisdom that they realised that a conference call in the early morning is not a good way to start negotiating an international acquisition. Oh and the HLT Koha Committee also contains former LibLime Vice-Presidents. So once upon a time, LibLime didn't think they were so inexperienced. Which LibLime should the community believe? The old Metavore-owned one or the new PTFS-owned one? Owner changed: all change please! [...]
We will support Koha through the koha.org website and we will continue to work towards our goal of developing and deploying a true next generation system that manages both print and digital collections in a single application.
Firstly, please don't continue confusing people with the fork of an old version which doesn't allow users to touch the source code or base configuration. Do the decent thing and rename at least. Secondly, a merger with Archivalware? Great, that'll become GPL and sooner or later users will share it. But Koha has nothing to fear: managing the collections is possible in Koha already and has been for a long time: software.coop got started with Koha for a library that used it to track video kit, back in 2003. Managing the digital items themsleves is a different problem and attempting to merge that into Koha seems like a mistake to me. The buzz about LMS 2.0 is about smaller specialist components that cooperate, not about making new monoliths. Hope that helps, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster and LMS developer at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op
participants (13)
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Bob Birchall ＠ Calyx -
Cab Vinton -
Chris Nighswonger -
David Schuster -
Frederic Demians -
Joanna Hause -
Josh Westbrook -
Kelly Sherman -
Kurt Bodling -
Lori Ayre -
MJ Ray -
Rick Welykochy -
vtl＠scls.lib.wi.us