Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org
Thomas, you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying not to remove the links to version of Koha that not everyone can have access to - I was saying - don't leave the demos section blank - make sure we find a genuine Koha demo to replace them with. Vendors with their own versions of Koha can have those demos on their own sites, but they don't belong on koha.org. Nicole On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Thomas Dukleth <thomasd@agogme.com> wrote:
While it is certainly inappropriate for the only linked demonstrations to not include running community versions of the code, I agree with Nicole Engard in not asking for the removal of LibLime demonstration links, at least at this time. Rather than merely encouraging links to many demonstrations from particular support companies, I suggest that the support companies volunteer and/or co-operate in producing some especially good community demonstrations which are not an advertisement for any particular support company. The French demonstrations at the French Koha website, http://www.koha-fr.org/ , are run by BibLibre but they do not contain anything which could be construed as an advertisement for BibLibre.
Community demonstrations which do not advertise support services via logins, URLs, or other means should be listed first. If some have an interest in providing other demonstrations which may be of interest for providing different configuration examples but may contain some subtle advertisement then those should be listed afterwords with some appropriate label separating them.
Removing the only demonstrations now would be counter-productive. Furthermore, we should not push LibLime further away from the rest of the Koha community than they are taking themselves. We should welcome any change of stance that they might have on community participation in future without holding anything against them.
There had been a time when the only English community demonstrations were provided by LibLime and as long as no one else was offering any others it was difficult to question their use as advertising for one particular support company. There are now other options and interested people should put those forward.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
On Thu, October 8, 2009 19:28, Nicole Engard wrote:
Owen, I'd actually change that and say that the demo links shouldn't be removed - there are plenty of genuine Open Source Koha installations that can be used instead - I know that ByWater has some: http://bywatersolutions.com/content/category/4/21/42/
Nicole
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Owen Leonard <oleonard@myacpl.org> wrote:
I think it's inappropriate for Koha.org to link to LibLime demos, given the fact that LibLime's demo page explicitly showcases "LibLime Enterprise Koha," a closed version of Koha which has not been shared with the community. Demoing LEK is useless to those who wish to participate in the Open Source Koha. I call on LibLime to either provide direct links to genuine Open Source Koha installations or remove the demo links.
-- Owen
-- Web Developer Athens County Public Libraries http://www.myacpl.org _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
* Nicole Engard (nengard@gmail.com) wrote:
Thomas, you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying not to remove the links to version of Koha that not everyone can have access to - I was saying - don't leave the demos section blank - make sure we find a genuine Koha demo to replace them with. Vendors with their own versions of Koha can have those demos on their own sites, but they don't belong on koha.org.
I agree with Nicole, (and Owen and Chris N) It is inappropriate to link to a version of Koha that has not been released and isn't representative of what people can download and install. It is not demonstrating Koha, and surely that is the point of the demo, to demonstrate the version of Koha you can check out from git, or download and run, otherwise we are falsely representing what is available. I don't the advertising part of it is an issue at all, apart from the fact that it is advertisting something that isn't Koha. Chris -- Chris Cormack Catalyst IT Ltd. +64 4 803 2238 PO Box 11-053, Manners St, Wellington 6142, New Zealand
Reply inline: 1. CLARIFICATION OF A GRADUATED REMEDY. On Fri, October 9, 2009 02:13, Chris Cormack wrote: [...]
I agree with Nicole, (and Owen and Chris N) It is inappropriate to link to a version of Koha that has not been released and isn't representative of what people can download and install.
I think that my subsequent posts clarified the fact that I agree that linking to non-free software based on Koha from the community website is wrong and confusing as Nicole Engard had explained. We should be especially concerned about the confusion from prospective users of free software who may not recognise that LEK is non-free despite being promoted as open source. People may presume that the source code to LEK is available and blame Koha when they later discover that it is not. I had offered an alternative view from others about how to correct the problem. I preferred that we proceed a little more patiently by asking LibLime to make the source code for LEK available first. I had suggested that we should not first ask LibLime to remove their demonstration link from the main Koha website to a LibLime page which links to LEK demonstrations from the top of the page. I had suggested asking that the link be relabelled for the moment, until the Koha community can offer a real alternative of something such as what Kyle Hall had suggested in other website possibilities. I had made an even stronger suggestion than Kyle's much more subtly. The prospect of a real alternative would give LibLime an additional reason to reconsider their position. I chose to be extremely subtle because acting confrontational even with extraordinary justification has certainly not produced helpful responses from LibLime. I still hope that LibLime will find a way back to the participating in the Koha community on terms which work for them as I have hoped they would consider in extensive private suggestions to them. 1.1. MY REQUEST OF LIBLIME. I certainly ask LibLime to either provide the source code to LibLime Enterprise Koha; redirect LibLime demonstration links on koha.org only directly to Koha demonstrations for which the source code is available and not to LibLime pages linking on to demonstrations which are not free software; or at the very least, while considering their position at the moment, label the LibLime demonstration links from koha.org to the LibLime demonstrations page with LibLime Enterprise Koha demonstrations in some appropriate manner which distinguishes the link as leading to the currently non-free LibLime software based on Koha. In all cases, LibLime should provide the opportunity for others to add more prominent links to advertising free demonstrations of Koha in some suitable subdomains of koha.org; links to demonstrations on other non-profit Koha community websites such as http://demo.koha-fr.org/ and http://opacdemo.koha-fr.org/ ; and should prepare to have any Koha demonstrations of their own which they would want linked from koha.org available in a similar advertising free manner from some koha.org subdomains or other non-profit Koha community website. Ignoring a request to at least meet some intersection of those options should be understood as breach of faith with current and prospective Koha users. 1.2. PROCEEDING OTHERWISE. Apparently, others have less patience for a graduated path to resolution. Everyone is free to make the request of LibLime. I changed the subject from graduated problem solving where I found little agreement to being prepared with strength to act as a unified community via the one or the other of the immediate foundation forming choices which are only HLT and SPI for an intermediate period as I see it. I gave my reasons including why I favour the flexibility of HLT and several people have offered similar reasons. 2. COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING VIA KOHA.ORG GENERALLY IS WRONG.
I don't
[understand how]
the advertising part of it is an issue at all, apart from the fact that it is advertisting something that isn't Koha.
I think that we started on the path which would eventually lead to LibLime linking from the community website to a LibLime page with a non-free demonstrations by not earlier complaining that subtle advertising in the demonstrations linked from the main website is not appropriate for a community demonstration. The demonstrations should have always been completely neutral and linked within the koha.org domain as they are at the French Koha website's demonstrations, http://demo.koha-fr.org/ and http://opacdemo.koha-fr.org/ . I find myself complicit in the history of this problem because apparently subtle advertising in the demonstrations has bothered me more than some other English language people involved in the Koha community. I justified to myself not raising any objection because initially the subtle advertising seemed to me to be the least reward when LibLime had been first having a difficult time obtaining enough customers for a sustainable business in the US. I was not paying much attention to the Koha community at the time when LibLime was having a much easier time obtaining customers. There are obviously many other and some more important factors in the history. However, I think that a community demonstration of the software should be just that, a community demonstration of the software, and we should not make the same mistake again of allowing subtle advertising irrespective of who actually maintains a community demonstration. There should be an appropriate central place where everyone can given appropriate credit for their contributions in a manner which does not constitute advertising. A fairly reconstituted pay for support page is an appropriate place for a little reasonable commercial advertising in addition to some informative news announcements which are in part advertising but come and go. Outside of such circumscribed areas, commercial advertising is misplaced on koha.org and I contend has been a significant element of our current trouble. Non-commercial community advertising should not pose the same problem. As Nicole identified in a recent post, the main Koha website should be understood as a website for all languages. That should not stop other people from having their own community websites in any language. The main community website has not linked properly to the French community website since the switch to the Kea content management system in 2005. There are some details about a mistake with the link to http://www.koha-fr.org which I shall overlook. However, in addition to having content in various languages, and linking to other community websites, the main Koha website should be linking to community demonstrations of the software in various languages just as Nicole said. [...] Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:10 AM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
Reply inline:
I preferred that we proceed a little more patiently by asking LibLime to make the source code for LEK available first. I had suggested that we should not first ask LibLime to remove their demonstration link from the main Koha website to a LibLime page which links to LEK demonstrations from the top of the page. I had suggested asking that the link be relabelled for the moment, until the Koha community can offer a real alternative of something such as what Kyle Hall had suggested in other website possibilities. I had made an even stronger suggestion than Kyle's much more subtly. The prospect of a real alternative would give LibLime an additional reason to reconsider their position.
I was under the impression that this has been asked an answered already - do we think that asking over and over again is going to change the answer? This is quoted from here: http://www.nabble.com/LibLime-Enterprise-Koha-Q-A-to25461986.html#a25480875 "Hi, I just got off the phone with Joshua Ferraro. My library is a LibLime customer, and we had some business to discuss. I took advantage of the opportunity to express the concern that I share with many others about LibLime making their code available to the community. He said, "We will not be making our git repo public as it contains customer-sensitive data." I asked him if I could quote him, and he said yes. So there it is. I also asked if all of the sponsored enhancements would be shared, or if a customer could withhold enhancements altogether. He said that because the code's under the GPL, it would have to be released eventually. Cheers, Daniel Grobani"
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner. At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate. I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect. Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783 On Fri, October 9, 2009 02:04, Nicole Engard wrote:
Thomas, you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying not to remove the links to version of Koha that not everyone can have access to - I was saying - don't leave the demos section blank - make sure we find a genuine Koha demo to replace them with. Vendors with their own versions of Koha can have those demos on their own sites, but they don't belong on koha.org.
[...]
* Thomas Dukleth (kohalist@agogme.com) wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner.
At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
I just would like the links to demos to be links to demos of Koha whether they are hosted at Liblime or in Timbuktu I don't really care as long as they are demonstrations of Koha. Chris
On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:08 PM, Chris Cormack wrote:
* Thomas Dukleth (kohalist@agogme.com) wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner. At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non- community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising.
Thomas - I do question your use of the word non-community demonstrations here and community demonstrations (let's call them what they are). There is a vast difference between LEK and Koha and that you should label them correctly. The demos on the koha.org should be of Koha not something else. -Brendan
I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
I just would like the links to demos to be links to demos of Koha whether they are hosted at Liblime or in Timbuktu I don't really care as long as they are demonstrations of Koha.
Chris _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Maybe by using LibLime's own naming I have fallen into a marketing trap. LEK is however Koha based even if referring to LEK as Koha may lead to semantic confusion. OPALS is Koha based at least from an earlier period and LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK into Koha fairly easy at the present time. All I am suggesting is not to push LibLime out of the Koha community any faster than they are taking themselves out. LibLime obviously wants the association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an inducement for them to participate in the community. I would like to see what might be done to encourage LEK to actually become part of Koha by not insisting too strongly that it is entirely alien code. Gentle encouragement may not have been working well with LibLime recently, however, there is some evidence that taking a stern attitude about some things has only exacerbated problems with the company which does effectively control the community website. I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising. Failing to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular company. It would have been much easier to address that issue when Katipo was controlling the community website but I never made comment. Fixing the issue had always meant maintaining a current demonstration system and at least LibLime had been doing that work when no one else offered. Yes I think that we should make the issue clear but I do not think we should press the issue in a manner which is only likely to provoke a negative reaction. Until the community is less dependent upon what LibLime controls, the community should keep better in mind the personal attitude of those in control. At the present time, I think that our prospect of influence is greater by asking for cooperation where it is more likely to be obtained. Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783 On Fri, October 9, 2009 03:26, Brendan Gallagher wrote:
On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:08 PM, Chris Cormack wrote:
* Thomas Dukleth (kohalist@agogme.com) wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner. At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non- community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising.
Thomas - I do question your use of the word non-community demonstrations here and community demonstrations (let's call them what they are).
There is a vast difference between LEK and Koha and that you should label them correctly.
The demos on the koha.org should be of Koha not something else.
-Brendan
I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
I just would like the links to demos to be links to demos of Koha whether they are hosted at Liblime or in Timbuktu I don't really care as long as they are demonstrations of Koha.
Chris _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Maybe by using LibLime's own naming I have fallen into a marketing trap. LEK is however Koha based even if referring to LEK as Koha may lead to semantic confusion. OPALS is Koha based at least from an earlier period and LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK into Koha fairly easy at the present time.
Except that Liblime has indicated that they will only be releasing the files in a standard tarball style, and will make no effort to help integrate the work with standard Koha. At the very best, this makes integration extremely hard.
All I am suggesting is not to push LibLime out of the Koha community any faster than they are taking themselves out. LibLime obviously wants the association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an inducement for them to participate in the community.
I would agree. Liblime has been a great contributor in the past, and perhaps they will come back in time. However, it's also possible that Liblime needs only the name recognition that Koha brings.
I would like to see what might be done to encourage LEK to actually become part of Koha by not insisting too strongly that it is entirely alien code. Gentle encouragement may not have been working well with LibLime recently, however, there is some evidence that taking a stern attitude about some things has only exacerbated problems with the company which does effectively control the community website.
The problem is that it *is* alien code. And the longer the time between releasing the code to LEK, the harder it becomes to integrate. We are working on Koha, and they are working on LEK. So it's not the situation where they release code that is just more features on top of standard Koha. By the time they release it, Koha will have changed quite a lot. Features are being added continuously to Koha. Once this happens, integrating the two becomes extremely difficult. This problem is exacerbated by Liblimes outright statement that they will not make a Git repository for LEK available, which would have gone a long way to helping this situation.
I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising. Failing to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular company. It would have been much easier to address that issue when Katipo was controlling the community website but I never made comment. Fixing the issue had always meant maintaining a current demonstration system and at least LibLime had been doing that work when no one else offered.
There was no reason they could not have left up their standard Koha demos, and added their LEK demos in addition, but they chose not to. No request was ever made. Liblime, at least in recent times, has prefered to do everything internally, rather than get community help. The way they went ahead with forming a Koha non-profit foundation is another example. No intention of doing so was declared, we only found out after the fact. I can't really judge them for these actions, but it is what it is.
Yes I think that we should make the issue clear but I do not think we should press the issue in a manner which is only likely to provoke a negative reaction. Until the community is less dependent upon what LibLime controls, the community should keep better in mind the personal attitude of those in control. At the present time, I think that our prospect of influence is greater by asking for cooperation where it is more likely to be obtained.
At this point, I get the feeling that the only way we the community will ever have full control of Koha again is to 'fork' Koha by renaming it, while registering all trademarks and domain names in advance. What's Maori for 'Another Gift'? I'm sure the collective resources of the Koha support companies could easily handle this. If another Koha demo is needed, I will volunteer to host it, along with anything else ( websites, git, etc. ). Kyle
LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK into Koha fairly easy at the present time.
...although that is purely speculation at this point. LibLime has not responded to my questions about database changes in their version.
LibLime obviously wants the association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an inducement for them to participate in the community.
Unfortunately I think LibLime wants the association with the Koha name because it lends them a credibility they are rapidly losing on other fronts.
I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising. Failing to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular company.
This is easy enough to say, but as you can see from the difficulty in setting up a Koha Foundation, harder to accomplish in reality. Who would have hosted this community website? Who would have owned the domain name? There wasn't, and still isn't, any entity which could have accomplished this. What I'm asking of LibLime is something that they would ask of any other Koha support company: Don't advertise a proprietary version on the community site. Does anyone believe LibLime would have allowed other companies to even post *news* about their own proprietary versions of Koha? -- Owen -- Web Developer Athens County Public Libraries http://www.myacpl.org
I'm with Owen on this - this isn't a political issue - it's a practical one. If someone visits the Koha demos and then downloads Koha based on them, we're going to get a bunch of questions on list and IRC about features we know nothing about. Also, from a documentation manager's point of view, I don't want people thinking I didn't document something I was supposed to. When you visit koha.org you should see Koha demos, when you visit OPALS' site you should get OPAL and when you visit LibLime you can see the LEK demos. Makes perfect sense to me. Nicole On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 5:18 AM, Owen Leonard <oleonard@myacpl.org> wrote:
LEK is more recently Koha based which should make integration of LEK into Koha fairly easy at the present time.
...although that is purely speculation at this point. LibLime has not responded to my questions about database changes in their version.
LibLime obviously wants the association with the Koha name and that at least should be used as an inducement for them to participate in the community.
Unfortunately I think LibLime wants the association with the Koha name because it lends them a credibility they are rapidly losing on other fronts.
I have always thought that the English demonstration should have been hosted on the community website without any subtle advertising. Failing to correct the issue in the past has become a small problem for the image of Koha as free software which is not dependent upon any particular company.
This is easy enough to say, but as you can see from the difficulty in setting up a Koha Foundation, harder to accomplish in reality. Who would have hosted this community website? Who would have owned the domain name? There wasn't, and still isn't, any entity which could have accomplished this.
What I'm asking of LibLime is something that they would ask of any other Koha support company: Don't advertise a proprietary version on the community site. Does anyone believe LibLime would have allowed other companies to even post *news* about their own proprietary versions of Koha?
-- Owen
-- Web Developer Athens County Public Libraries http://www.myacpl.org _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries. That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually no one knows what the heck a Koha is. http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?SID=20091009648193359&Country=United+States&Type=Public Thanks, -- Ben On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner.
At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
Not quite sure what the links were illustrating, but here are the persistent versions: (including the SID for an expired session will redirect to the main LTG page). http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public -marshall -----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Ide Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:31 AM To: kohalist@agogme.com Cc: Koha List Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries. That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually no one knows what the heck a Koha is. http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public Thanks, -- Ben On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner.
At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
How much can we trust these statistics? I can say that my 9 CCFLS libraries are not on this list. Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Breeding, Marshall <marshall.breeding@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
Not quite sure what the links were illustrating, but here are the persistent versions: (including the SID for an expired session will redirect to the main LTG page).
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
-marshall
-----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Ide Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:31 AM To: kohalist@agogme.com Cc: Koha List Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org
I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries.
That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually no one knows what the heck a Koha is.
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
Thanks, -- Ben
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner.
At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
I'm wrong, they are listed under 'Koha - Liblime', despite the fact that we have nothing to do with Liblime now. We had a support contract with them our first year using Koha, and of course the Zebra sponsorship. Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
How much can we trust these statistics? I can say that my 9 CCFLS libraries are not on this list.
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Breeding, Marshall <marshall.breeding@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
Not quite sure what the links were illustrating, but here are the persistent versions: (including the SID for an expired session will redirect to the main LTG page).
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
-marshall
-----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Ide Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:31 AM To: kohalist@agogme.com Cc: Koha List Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org
I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries.
That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually no one knows what the heck a Koha is.
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
Thanks, -- Ben
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner.
At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
I'm wrong and right now. The site is screwy. Clicking the next page of results link on Koha -- Liblime, took me to Koha -- Independent, which is where I found some of my libraries, but no all of them ( 3 out of 9 ). Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm wrong, they are listed under 'Koha - Liblime', despite the fact that we have nothing to do with Liblime now. We had a support contract with them our first year using Koha, and of course the Zebra sponsorship.
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
How much can we trust these statistics? I can say that my 9 CCFLS libraries are not on this list.
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Breeding, Marshall <marshall.breeding@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
Not quite sure what the links were illustrating, but here are the persistent versions: (including the SID for an expired session will redirect to the main LTG page).
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
-marshall
-----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Ide Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:31 AM To: kohalist@agogme.com Cc: Koha List Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org
I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries.
That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually no one knows what the heck a Koha is.
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
Thanks, -- Ben
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner.
At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Actually, I just did a search for "Meadville", and the 8 rural libraries and the Crawford County Federated Library System itself came up as Liblime customers---which is *not* be the case any longer. Oddly enough, Meadville Public Library isn't in there. Also interesting to note is that at some point ages ago I recall finding that our libraries were listed as Liblime supported and changing to list us as independently supported, and somehow these listings have been changed back to Liblime. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cindy Murdock Ames IT Services Director Meadville Public Library | CCFLS http://meadvillelibrary.org | http://ccfls.org Kyle Hall wrote:
I'm wrong and right now. The site is screwy. Clicking the next page of results link on Koha -- Liblime, took me to Koha -- Independent, which is where I found some of my libraries, but no all of them ( 3 out of 9 ).
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm wrong, they are listed under 'Koha - Liblime', despite the fact that we have nothing to do with Liblime now. We had a support contract with them our first year using Koha, and of course the Zebra sponsorship.
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cindy Murdock Ames IT Services Director Meadville Public Library | CCFLS http://meadvillelibrary.org | http://ccfls.org
Our library also changed from LibLime to independent when we upgraded to 3.0. Kyle Hall wrote:
I'm wrong, they are listed under 'Koha - Liblime', despite the fact that we have nothing to do with Liblime now. We had a support contract with them our first year using Koha, and of course the Zebra sponsorship.
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
How much can we trust these statistics? I can say that my 9 CCFLS libraries are not on this list.
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Breeding, Marshall <marshall.breeding@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
Not quite sure what the links were illustrating, but here are the persistent versions: (including the SID for an expired session will redirect to the main LTG page).
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
-marshall
-----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Ide Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 11:31 AM To: kohalist@agogme.com Cc: Koha List Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha demo links on koha.org
I believe that The Community feels very strongly otherwise, since more that 75% of the recent voting valued ownership issues, compared to less than 20% who wanted to actually promote Koha to libraries.
That's kind of too bad, that 20% thing, because -- contrary to the notion that any company can "cash in" on Koha's good name -- virtually no one knows what the heck a Koha is.
http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+Kingdom&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=Australia&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=France&Type=Public http://www.librarytechnology.org/lwc-ils-marketshare.pl?Country=United+States&Type=Public
Thanks, -- Ben
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
I now have a corrected understanding of Nicole's position. However much better it would be to have only community versions of Koha demonstrations linked from the community website, I would rather we not advocate purity in a manner that LibLime is liable to respond to in the most negative manner.
At this time, I prefer that we ask LibLime to demote their non-community demonstrations as linked from the community website in favour of community demonstrations with no subtle advertising. I prefer a gentler approach to LibLime than asking them to eliminate links to their demonstrations. In suggesting this approach, I am hoping that we would be encouraging LibLime to act more favourably towards the community which I hope that they would reciprocate.
I am advocating this less than pure approach for the time being to see if it may have a favourable effect.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Tim McMahon Technical Services West Liberty Public Library
participants (10)
-
Ben Ide -
Breeding, Marshall -
Brendan Gallagher -
Chris Cormack -
Cindy Murdock Ames -
Kyle Hall -
Nicole Engard -
Owen Leonard -
Thomas Dukleth -
Tim McMahon