[Koha] Support for Koha

[Joann Ransom]

Hi Josh,

Not sure my response warranted such a full frontal attack mate ....

Cheers Jo.
 

Joshua Ferraro wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Joann Ransom<jransom at library.org.nz> wrote:
>   
>> No Cheryl, this is not at all the way the Koha Community operates as a
>> rule. There are plenty of other vendors who are prepared to honour the
>> licensing conditions designed to keep Koha the open source project it
>> was released as and should always be. Choose another vendor if  you are
>> uncomfortable  about a vendors choice to  hold back code or not
>> contribute to the good of the community; there are plenty of good
>> alternatives out there.
>>     
> This is very misleading, Joann! It has been well established that
> Horowhenua in particular has withheld code from the Koha community.
> For instance, the version of Koha that you are now running live on,
> has code and templates that have never been shared with the rest of
> us. It certainly wasn't done out of spite, but is just the reality of
> limited resources of the vendor that supported you.
>
> Since this has turned into an attack on LibLime I feel I must state
> for the record that, as far as I know, LibLime is the ONLY vendor that
> has historically contributed 100% of our code as soon as it was
> approved by a customer's quality assurance testing. As far as I know,
> every other vendor in the Koha community intentionally withholds
> customizations that are only available to their customers, or don't
> take the time to fully integrate their code into the mainline Koha
> codebase (understandably so, as this either gives them a competitive
> edge, or they simply don't have time to contribute it).
>
> I've had contractors who have worked for me, and for other vendors in
> the community confirm this of nearly all of the active Koha vendors
> listed on the support page (if that's not the case at your firm, and
> you feel I'm misrepresenting you, please correct me).
>
> Also, please check your sources. The GPL V2 (which Koha uses) only
> _requires_ redistribution of modifications if the code leaves the
> servers owned by the creator of the modifications. So, companies who
> host Koha in a software as a service environment are not obligated to
> redistribute their code to the community (which is why so many Koha
> vendors are able to withhold their code). Also, the GPL V2 only
> requires making the source code available to the specific people it is
> re-distributed to, there is no requirement for people to spend time
> they may not have, integrating their changes into the main project!
> It's a good thing too, otherwise many of the people implementing Koha,
> or supporting Koha, wouldn't have the resources to continue doing so.
>
> It's frankly depressing that after contributing well over 60% of
> Koha's codebase to date, these kind of negative implications about
> LibLime are injected into the community with such disregard for all
> the 'good' we've done.
>
> Also, for the record, as requested by LibLime's customers, the LibLime
> Users's Group list is a closed list, so messages sent to that list
> should NOT be forwarded to the general Koha list, or anywhere else.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Josh
>
>   
>> Joann Ransom.
>> Horowhenua Library Trust
>> original developers of Koha.
>>
>> C MC wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi Koha Users,
>>>
>>> I am a US librarian considering Koha.  A friend of mine sent me the
>>> following email when I shared this and I wanted to check with other
>>> libraries to see if this is how everyone handles developments.  Are
>>> you working on your own or with a support company?  Are all new
>>> develpments you pay for making it into the public Koha?
>>>
>>> Thank you for info
>>> Cheryl
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Vicki Teal Lovely <vtl at scls.lib.wi.us <mailto:vtl at scls.lib.wi.us>>
>>> Date: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:43 AM
>>> Subject: [LibLime-Users] LibLime Users Meeting at ALA
>>> To: liblime-users at lists.liblime.com
>>> <mailto:liblime-users at lists.liblime.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good Morning Everyone,
>>>
>>> By now you have probably read the announcement that there was a user
>>> group meeting at ALA.  Debra Denault took notes at this meeting and you
>>> will see them below.  I was present at this meeting and this is an
>>> accurate transcription of the discussion that occurred there.  Please
>>> keep in mind that no decisions were made at this meeting--it was only
>>> the beginning of some discussions that LibLime customers need to have.
>>> The email list was created as a forum for us to discuss topics such as
>>> these (among other things), so let's start discussing.  Joshua Ferraro
>>> has suggested that we may want have a meeting to discuss these topics in
>>> person--perhaps in a virtual forum.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Vicki Teal Lovely
>>>
>>>
>>> LibLime Users Group Meeting, ALA, July 13
>>>
>>> Attendees: LibLime (Josh, Debra, Maria)
>>>                   WALDO (Rob, John, Becky)
>>>                   Walden University - Michele
>>>                   INCOLSA - Becki Whitaker
>>>                   Highland Park - Jane Stanley
>>>                   SCLS - Vicky Teal Lovely
>>>                   Masscat - Nora Blake
>>>                   St. John's University - Charles ?
>>>
>>> Josh presents:
>>>
>>> Why are we here?
>>> Challenges we face
>>>
>>> *Jane Stanley said that she would be amenable to extra maintenance to
>>> support the gap between cost and expense of development
>>>
>>> LibLime user group proposal
>>>
>>> air dirty laundry
>>> expand development exchange
>>> get to know other LibLime customers
>>> improve communication of software releases
>>> improve communication of new and info to LibLime customers
>>> LibLime committed to launch a listserv next month
>>>
>>> 1. Incorporation
>>> 2. Membership
>>> 3. Funding
>>> 4. 2010 users group conference
>>>
>>> Feedback:
>>>
>>> John Stromquist - always find emergence of user's group when there is
>>> a strategic relationship between customer and vendor. Evaluate vendors
>>> performance, encourage them etc which shouldn't interfere with a
>>> broader community group. More difficult challenge of funding of future
>>> development. Exercise option by searching for solutions to the funding
>>> problems for development. Get a funding stream for development through
>>> membership dues etc.
>>>
>>> Jane - Hard for a small library that can only contribute a small
>>> amount to get anything done. Perception is that LL is too committed to
>>> these large projects to let the small guys have a say.
>>>
>>> Josh - have membership fee x% of contract value to go towards user
>>> group as well as development decisions
>>>
>>> Vicky - she would hate to see a small library with a small amount of
>>> money who has committed money to large pool and not get what they want
>>> done ... would prefer to see a) people need to see what dev projects
>>> are out there but who is going to keep it up - maybe a user group
>>> responsibility b) wishlist - we want this done can we cosponsor. Do
>>> not want to be locked into a voting situation. Kudos want to do it on
>>> larger scale but no where near being able to do it.
>>>
>>> John S - lots of ways we can approach this - some money toward larger
>>> scale but understand there are small development needs that could
>>> exist in parallel. Do a credit against funding toward positive
>>> suggestions and central fund could match it.
>>>
>>> Vicky - can't see their libraries putting there money somewhere where
>>> they do not have control over it . Nora concurs from Masscat
>>>
>>> John S - libraries want to see service out of where their money is
>>> going. WALDO sees the benefits of it.
>>>
>>> Josh - 15% wouldn't necessarily be pooled but can be. But libraries
>>> could band with others to do projects separatey. Needs to be a metric
>>> by which to measure how participation is going.
>>>
>>> John S - libraries need to know it's an equitable process
>>>
>>> Vicky - To Josh - is getting this money what LL needs to make it more
>>> stable. Help out others that may not be able to afford something
>>> specifically. Get folks together and do it.
>>>
>>> Josh - How can we make this work?
>>>
>>> Jane - Can we get a quote for LL and post to the listserv if others
>>> would want to share.
>>>
>>> Vicky - Thinks that would be better than pooling it together.
>>>
>>> Jane - It's the large consortia versus the little guys and they would
>>> have the budget to do things on their own and the small guys need the
>>> help.
>>>
>>> Josh - but WALDO could help in in any situation
>>>
>>> Becki - value of a group like this would be the method to share what
>>> we are doing and important step to be able to share our developments.
>>>
>>> Vicky - very first step - who's doing what. But we want to work with our
>>> vendor
>>>
>>> Rob - now that we are all shareholders in this and in LibLime there is
>>> a risk in sharing the development and that the investment is safe
>>> (i.e. from other vendors in the space) Need to maintain a level of
>>> discretion in involvement of other groups.
>>>
>>> Josh - if user group would like to take over and run the development
>>> exchange that would relieve our staff. Specification process is a line
>>> item. Is there a committment when a request is made for a sponsored
>>> project to be done?
>>>
>>> Vicky - Maybe two lists - one for committed project and one for good
>>> ideas and have projects move along a spectrum.
>>>
>>> Josh - LL is working on a new LibLime website that will have a login
>>> for customers to log in access
>>>
>>> Vicky - Koha bugzilla db - use that for enhancements - ??? how much do
>>> LL customers want to share with outside world what will be done.
>>>
>>> Jane - was told can't pay for bugfixes -
>>>
>>> Josh - need to figure out membership dues - just do freeform - need to
>>> figure out how it all works - can reevaluate this yearly.
>>>
>>> John - would like to propse some kind of statement of intent or
>>> recognition as a open source LL user that there is an obligation to
>>> contribute to ongoing development and money needs to be set aside for
>>> this so system can continue to grow. Not just a free lunch
>>>
>>> Vicky - part of their philosophy is we have money for development and
>>> they are contributing and they would hate to force any library to
>>> contribute to development. Doesn't want it to be part of membership
>>> requirements
>>>
>>> Josh - related to funding we at LL are interested too as we have made
>>> a significant investment in Koha and that has been at the expense of
>>> profit for us and we want to make sure development is working as
>>> sufficiently as possible.
>>>
>>> Becky - significant improvement in that a customer can be recognized
>>> for their contribution.
>>>
>>> Josh - Any thoughts on a conference?
>>>
>>> Rob - could be dependent on going live dates etc.
>>>
>>> John - alot of chatter about the community of Koha by developers need
>>> librarian input and we are looking for an organization that talk about
>>> library issues.
>>>
>>> Vicky - too soon to have a conference. Don't think folks could afford
>>> it for such a small group. Do a half day for LL users off KohaCon as
>>> automation libraries cannot go to ALA. Should be off a kudos annual
>>> conference.
>>>
>>> Jane - how does that contradict our committment to LL.
>>>
>>> Josh - part of our goal with LL users group is to build stronger legs
>>> where we can compete with other companies. Not that we are against all
>>> the other competitors - have great relationship with ByWater but there
>>> are some out there acting like sharks putting us in a difficult
>>> position
>>>
>>> Vicky - puts us in a difficult position not to be able to share with
>>> other community to users and the LL pool is too small in her opinion.
>>>
>>> Josh - well LL users contributes 97%
>>>
>>> Vicky - you will cause a rift in your customer base and there are
>>> enough that want to work with Koha users that it is going to happen.
>>>
>>> John - but there doesn't need to be a choice to be made. The kudos
>>> committment is a higher level participation.
>>>
>>> Josh - not saying can't go to the kudos or participate in kudos but we
>>> need the LL user's group conference because of other reasons.
>>>
>>> Kate - what kind of attendence of LL customers - 60% of customers - 100
>>> people
>>>
>>> Josh - at a LL user group meeting customers can be more open and
>>> honest than if at a shared event.
>>>
>>> Charles - i'm a low level player but what he sees is a .com
>>> organization talking to a bunch of .edu organizations with different
>>> philosophies. Where/when does this mean a split in the product.
>>>
>>> Josh - 1. that's already happened . Koha by LibLime different already
>>> than what others delivered. 2. getting considerable pressure by
>>> sponsored developments to embargoing the code. 3. LL cannot change the
>>> philosophy to contribute to the community. Need to have a timed
>>> release that gives us a strategic advantage.
>>>
>>> Nora - this is very upsetting and disconcerting to us. That's not why
>>> we joined on.
>>>
>>> Josh - we would still give you all the community stuff
>>>
>>> Becky - but that breaks the value of open source
>>>
>>> Rob - the conditions have changed in being able to support the model.
>>> The user community has to answer why are we uncomfortable sharing and
>>> how the community is having adverse effect on why we got together in
>>> the first place.
>>>
>>> Vicky - would like to explore more positive ways for getting LL
>>> funding rather than break the community model of Koha.
>>>
>>> Josh - not making it not opensource - but we will hold it back.
>>>
>>> Nora/Vicky - don't like it - won't fly.
>>>
>>> Vicky - Kings County is splitting Evergreen to their own code and
>>> Vicky has been telling everyone how proud we are not in a position of
>>> having to do that.
>>>
>>> John -
>>>
>>> Jane - if there is another company underbidding are they sustainable
>>> themselves
>>>
>>> Josh - but this company has deep pockets and can sustain the loss. We
>>> have no capital backing
>>>
>>> Rob - learning a lesson from a shark that may not do much damage but
>>> what about the next shark.
>>>
>>> John - obligation to his consortia members who have contributed 750K
>>>
>>> Vicky - still share with everyone and want what they have. All of
>>> Wisconsin  may all become LL customers.
>>>
>>> Rob - what we are grasping with is it open or not? It's not that it's
>>> not open but rather when does it become open.
>>>
>>> Charles - holding open source back - what period of time do you have
>>> in mind
>>>
>>> Josh - not made a concrete decision on this yet. Not intent to talk
>>> about it today but bottom line is the problem is the cost to expense
>>> ratio of development and we cannot subsidize it with other services.
>>>
>>> Vicky - how are those decisions to develop those made if didn't have
>>> funding.
>>>
>>> Becki - if we had known then that 3.2 is not till the fall they would
>>> have bought into it back in the spring. If intent is to have a product
>>> that there are delays in releasing customer needs to know more
>>> concrete dates.
>>>
>>> Rob - development exchange can address these needs by gathering
>>> funding from smaller sources to be applied to these types of big
>>> projects.
>>>
>>> Vicky - instead of you saying it's a good project a library will front
>>> it you are suggesting this needs to be done who will front it.
>>>
>>> Vicky - if you are asking for the money to get closer it needs to be
>>> Koha related not other 3rd party projects and the software needs to be
>>> brought to a level that other libraries will migrate it to it.
>>>
>>> John - it's a timing issue
>>>
>>> Vicky - LL needs to offer stable support and need to prove that we can
>>> do it and show evidence it can be done. Do not want to withhold code.
>>> It would be a hard sell for me to go back and have my library agree to
>>> that.
>>>
>>> Josh - well of course there is time involved before the customer even
>>> approves code - make it longer term quality assurance testing first
>>> with customer then LL customers then to the community at large. Other
>>> thing that needs to be considered is that LL has been leading the Koha
>>> community but there seems to be an uprising amongst other Koha
>>> developers so we won't be holding those positions of quality assurance
>>> / release management of Koha and that will mean a detrimental effect
>>> on the quality of the product - trying to address that eventuality.
>>>
>>> Jane - do you see LL version diverging from the community
>>>
>>> Vicky - isn't there a group of folks
>>>
>>> Josh - yes but release manager has final say and if we lose that
>>> capability then what if our customers are not served by the product.
>>> We are not dedicated to the Koha community to a fault. Our customers
>>> come first and need to have stable good code.
>>>
>>> WrapUp
>>>
>>> It's been a valuable conversation. Need to continue the dialog to address.
>>> Will establish LL mailing list .. appropriate time to have a group
>>> meeting.
>>>
>>> Meeting adjourned 12:06 p.m.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Joshua Ferraro<jmf at liblime.com
>>> <mailto:jmf at liblime.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> --
>>> Vicki Teal Lovely
>>>
>>> vtl at scls.lib.wi.us <mailto:vtl at scls.lib.wi.us>
>>>
>>> Software Applications Supervisor
>>> SCLS Automation
>>> 201 W. Mifflin St.
>>> Madison, WI 53703
>>>
>>> (608)261-9109
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LibLime-Users mailing list
>>> LibLime-Users at lists.liblime.com <mailto:LibLime-Users at lists.liblime.com>
>>> http://lists.liblime.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/liblime-users
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Koha mailing list
>>> Koha at lists.katipo.co.nz
>>> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Koha mailing list
>> Koha at lists.katipo.co.nz
>> http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   
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