[Koha]KohaLa

[MJ Ray]

Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain at free.fr> wrote:
> Fortunatly, you seem to ignore what is a "french NPO"... Otherwise, you 
> would have realised how "ridiculous" your concern are. [...]

If you think these concerns are ridiculous, then I think you don't
understand these concerns.

I don't think there's any barrier to a French NPO being fair - after
all, isn't France the land of freedom, equality and community?  So why
should KohaLa be restricted, unequal and community-ignorant?

> > - Membership will not be open to all, requiring learning KohaLa's
> > rules and demonstrating an interest to the satisfaction of the
> > officers;
>
> that's the basic of every "loi 1901 association", otherwise anyone 
> including opponents to Koha could join !

It should not matter if opponents to Koha join, as long as they follow
the rules inside the association: then our opponents are paying to
work for us!

Also, in practice, the rules and interest tests will not prevent
opponents from joining: opponents have an incentive to lie to pass the
tests.  More of an incentive than many Koha supporters, in fact.

I can republish an old paper about this "theory of moles" if you want.

> > - Members will not have equal voting rights (physical persons get one
> > vote, corporations get two votes,
>
> (Note that we speak of a NPO here, so a vote is NOT to split any money).
> I don't see any problem here either. Frankly. Kohala is NOT a "company", 
> it's a "loi 1901 association". It's quite hard to explain what it means, 
> but nobody in france would be afraid or bothered by this decision !

Nobody in France believes that One Member One Vote is fairer than
giving corporations double votes?  I doubt that.

[...]
> The goal of a french loi 1901 is to have benevolent members that want to 
> support & lobby & do something for the object of the association. Most 
> associations get ressources from government for their actions.

Isn't the goal of a 1901-law association whatever you define it to be?

> So what is the goal of KohaLa: support & help Koha development. No more 
> no less.

That is not what the KohaLa Rules say, AFAICT.  KohaLa has as its
object the development, documentation, protection, promotion and
distribution of Koha (article 2).  Nothing about supporting and
helping the existing project is mentioned.

> [...] If KohaLa fork the project, then it's 
> no more Koha, then the association can't continue it's goal, then it 
> MUST be disolved[1] ! as simple as that !

I wasn't primarily discussing forking, but if KohaLa forks the
project, then it would only need to claim its fork is the One True
Koha somehow and it could continue.

> > - Therefore, assets will not be democratically and equitably controlled;
>
> We don't have assets, we have members. fundamentally different in our 
> culture !

In the language of the statutes, I mean "resources" by "assets".  The
sense is broadly unchanged.

> > Additionally:
> > 
> > - KohaLa need not offer any training to its elected representatives,
> > which means anyone elected without knowing relevant French law will
> > be in trouble.
>
> anyone not knowing the french law seem to mis-understand what is a loi 
> "1901 association".

Possibly.  This is one reason why offering training is necessary for a
true representation of Koha supporters.

[...]
> - our goal is NOT to earn money (forbidden by french law : if we have 
> more money than needed at the end of a year we can : keep it for next 
> year or give it to another association.It is considered as good 
> management to have something like 2 years in bank for a large & old 
> association. When the association is disolved, any remaining money 
> *must* be given to another association -remember, we don't have assets !-)

I don't think I have any complaint with being a 1901-law association.
For example, some French cooperative federations seem to be 1901-law
associations, so I believe a fair association is possible.  Why, for
example, isn't KohaLa being formed as a society of common interest and
cooperation (SCIC)?

It seems that key movers of KohaLa are unaware that other non-profit
forms even exist, but maybe I misunderstand.  Did KohaLa take expert
advice on possible forms?  I didn't see the discussion on infos-koha
about it, else I would have raised these questions before now.

I think my complaint is with KohaLa being an expansive and unfair
1901-law association, which seems to be presented to Koha supporters
with little consultation or representation.

Where have these rules and regulations come from?  Were models used?
Whose expert advice was taken?

> > - KohaLa does not concern itself with the wider community.
>
> right & wrong : we spoke of this during devWeek, and it appears that 
> it's too hard to build something worldwide directly. So we start 
> building things locally.

So build something locally which will fit in to the wider community.
KohaLa, as written currently, completely ignores that anything else
exists.  That is a bug.

> > Is it possible to remedy this?  If so, how?
>
> Knowing french associaitons is a good start ;-)

So explain them, or point to good explanations by others.  I really
doubt some of the things I'm being told, like a non-profit cooperation
is impossible in France.

> Just to conclude :
> - there are more than ... 1 000 000 associations loi 1901 in france. for 
> almost anything you can imagine, and probably things you even can't 
> imagine. I'm sure there is an association to "convince english ppl that 
> eating frog is good" !

There are more users of legacy library software than Koha!  Sheer
numbers does not mean that it is the right solution for us!  Also,
some of those million seem to be fair associations.

> - the idea to see KohaLa as a "user group" is correct, but I hope KohaLa 
> will be more than that. For example, I hope that, one day, the 
> association will have money from gov to sponsor some dev. [...]

So it will be a commercial non-profit business one day...?

In conclusion:

- KohaLa should be an open and voluntary association, without onerous
membership tests that will deter more supporters than opponents;

- KohaLa should be One Member One Vote and I don't believe that
double-votes for corporations is a French law requirement;

- If KohaLa is a users group, its objectives should reflect that;

- KohaLa's statutes should reflect its place in the Koha community;

- KohaLa should offer training to its council of administration, so
that the council reflects the community and not mainly law knowledge.

Hope that explains,
-- 
MJ Ray http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html tel:+44-844-4437-237 -
Webmaster-developer, statistician, sysadmin, online shop builder,
consumer and workers co-operative member http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ -
Writing on koha, debian, sat TV, Kewstoke http://mjr.towers.org.uk/