LibLime responses to some of yesterdays postings
LibLime is very encouraged at the amount of positive discussion that our post has generated and I will attempt to answer some of the questions that have been raised. We agree that Kohacon could be a very appropriate and productive forum to expand discussions on how to best set up a Koha Foundation. I would request that preliminary discussions start prior to that if possible, so that we would have a better sense of the agenda and the preparation required for Kohacon. Would it be possible to hold a meeting of some kind in the next few weeks? I will continue to be involved in the Koha Foundation process, but I have asked Amy DeGroff to be the LibLime spokesperson as the discussions evolve through the IRC and the list to make sure we do not miss any pertinent information/communications. Amy and Patrick Jones are key members of our LibLime staff that will also be supporting this process. LibLime has minimal preconceived mandates for the Koha Foundation except that it be a new formal non-profit organization that is only involved with Koha. We believe that US 501 (c)(3) laws are advantageous for non-profit corporations and that this type of a corporation would be very appropriate for the Koha Foundation. This fact was also referenced by another individual on the list yesterday. We will want to see typical governance documentation agreed upon and developed such as a Charter and Bylaws. LibLime, as one of multiple asset donors, will want to participate as an active and voting member of the Foundation. Finally, per a recent post, LibLime will contact the attorney of Metavore Inc., LibLime’s former corporate parent to see if the Koha 503C corporation created in 2009 will be transferred as a part of the LibLime asset purchase that PTFS made from Metivore Inc. in March of this year. This was not covered during the transaction. Best Regards John R. Yokley CEO LibLime Division of PTFS
2010/9/17 John Yokley <jyokley@ptfs.com>:
LibLime is very encouraged at the amount of positive discussion that our post has generated and I will attempt to answer some of the questions that have been raised. We agree that Kohacon could be a very appropriate and productive forum to expand discussions on how to best set up a Koha Foundation. I would request that preliminary discussions start prior to that if possible, so that we would have a better sense of the agenda and the preparation required for Kohacon. Would it be possible to hold a meeting of some kind in the next few weeks?
I think that Chris Nighswongers idea is the best. Let people write up their ideas/propositions/thoughts on the Koha wiki, this can take place over the next few weeks. So that people have time to read them and have thought about them before the IRC meeting around Kohacon. This will help to prepare the agenda, I vote that we do that as the preliminary discussion, the wiki is open to anyone to edit with an account they can create themselves. And it will result in a much more readable format. Chris
I think I missed sending this to the list. Trying again Chris ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Chris Cormack <chris@bigballofwax.co.nz> Date: 17 September 2010 06:37 Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime responses to some of yesterdays postings To: John Yokley <jyokley@ptfs.com> 2010/9/17 John Yokley <jyokley@ptfs.com>:
LibLime is very encouraged at the amount of positive discussion that our post has generated and I will attempt to answer some of the questions that have been raised. We agree that Kohacon could be a very appropriate and productive forum to expand discussions on how to best set up a Koha Foundation. I would request that preliminary discussions start prior to that if possible, so that we would have a better sense of the agenda and the preparation required for Kohacon. Would it be possible to hold a meeting of some kind in the next few weeks?
I think that Chris Nighswongers idea is the best. Let people write up their ideas/propositions/thoughts on the Koha wiki, this can take place over the next few weeks. So that people have time to read them and have thought about them before the IRC meeting around Kohacon. This will help to prepare the agenda, I vote that we do that as the preliminary discussion, the wiki is open to anyone to edit with an account they can create themselves. And it will result in a much more readable format. Chris
2010/9/16 John Yokley <jyokley@ptfs.com>:
LibLime is very encouraged at the amount of positive discussion that our post has generated and I will attempt to answer some of the questions that have been raised. We agree that Kohacon could be a very appropriate and productive forum to expand discussions on how to best set up a Koha Foundation. I would request that preliminary discussions start prior to that if possible, so that we would have a better sense of the agenda and the preparation required for Kohacon. Would it be possible to hold a meeting of some kind in the next few weeks?
I'm repeating part of a previous response of mine here in order to ensure that the points are not missed. I have also made an additional point or two within. What we really need now is not more talk and discussion, but concrete proposals to consider. In light of this, I move that those with serious proposals post them on the wiki and announce the posting on all interested lists so that interested parties can begin the process of due diligence in consideration and research. If this approach is acted upon quickly then there will be some real meat to chew on during KohaCon10. Otherwise, it we will probably just be spinning our wheels. (The wiki provides the most ideal environment for this sort of thing.) I really see no need for a IRC meeting to discuss these issues yet as there is really nothing of any substance to discuss, and we may end up missing any one of a number of important points, etc. So I further move that all individuals/corporations wishing to make proposals have them posted in a complete form by 11 October 2010. This gives two full weeks before the start of KohaCon for an initial period of research, consideration, etc. While I do not think that we need to expect any sort of final decision to arise out of KohaCon, I do think that we should (as with previous decisions) set a deadline for a final vote on this matter. Perhaps 01/01/2011 might be good. In any case, we should not rush nor drag our feet. Here are a few additional, personal thoughts: I'd love to see PTFS/LibLime's proposal with all of the details. I'd also like to see a proposal by HLT of what they would like considering that they are the originators of Koha and know best what they had in mind when they released it to the community. Furthermore, I'd like to see a variety of proposals from those in other countries represented in the community. It would also be nice for proposals to include factual legal support for why this new organization should be based in the proposed country. (This would keep us from speculating.) I think that a high level of detail and research given in and to a proposal will help avoid a variety of issues as this unfolds. Kind Regards, Chris
I'm wondering if it would be possible to work out a joint proposal via one or two IRC chats prior to Kohacon. I don't quite understand why individual parties need to prepare proposals. I would prefer to see a joint effort that satisfieds all parties involved. However, I'm admittedly very naive as to how a foundation should be set up. So, if protocol requires individual proposals, could a chat or two be held where people share their ideas of what should be included in the proposals? At the very least, I would like to know what will happen with these proposals. Will we be "voting" on them as presented? Will there be some type of integration done to get the best from all of them? Some of us may need a little more help than others to come up to speed on this process. I have tried to do some self-education on open source foundations, but there is a lot of information out there and apparently different types of foundations. I have participated in some IRC meetings, but apparently not the ones where foundations were discussed, or it went over my head. Would someone be willing to compile the previous discussions into one document that is readily accessible? Vicki On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Chris Nighswonger < cnighswonger@foundations.edu> wrote:
LibLime is very encouraged at the amount of positive discussion that our post has generated and I will attempt to answer some of the questions
have been raised. We agree that Kohacon could be a very appropriate and productive forum to expand discussions on how to best set up a Koha Foundation. I would request that preliminary discussions start prior to that if possible, so that we would have a better sense of the agenda and
2010/9/16 John Yokley <jyokley@ptfs.com>: that the
preparation required for Kohacon. Would it be possible to hold a meeting of some kind in the next few weeks?
I'm repeating part of a previous response of mine here in order to ensure that the points are not missed. I have also made an additional point or two within.
What we really need now is not more talk and discussion, but concrete proposals to consider.
In light of this, I move that those with serious proposals post them on the wiki and announce the posting on all interested lists so that interested parties can begin the process of due diligence in consideration and research. If this approach is acted upon quickly then there will be some real meat to chew on during KohaCon10. Otherwise, it we will probably just be spinning our wheels. (The wiki provides the most ideal environment for this sort of thing.)
I really see no need for a IRC meeting to discuss these issues yet as there is really nothing of any substance to discuss, and we may end up missing any one of a number of important points, etc.
So I further move that all individuals/corporations wishing to make proposals have them posted in a complete form by 11 October 2010. This gives two full weeks before the start of KohaCon for an initial period of research, consideration, etc.
While I do not think that we need to expect any sort of final decision to arise out of KohaCon, I do think that we should (as with previous decisions) set a deadline for a final vote on this matter. Perhaps 01/01/2011 might be good. In any case, we should not rush nor drag our feet.
Here are a few additional, personal thoughts:
I'd love to see PTFS/LibLime's proposal with all of the details.
I'd also like to see a proposal by HLT of what they would like considering that they are the originators of Koha and know best what they had in mind when they released it to the community.
Furthermore, I'd like to see a variety of proposals from those in other countries represented in the community.
It would also be nice for proposals to include factual legal support for why this new organization should be based in the proposed country. (This would keep us from speculating.)
I think that a high level of detail and research given in and to a proposal will help avoid a variety of issues as this unfolds.
Kind Regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Vicki Teal Lovely Helping our 52 member libraries provide the best possible service to the public. ILS Project Manager South Central Library System Madison, WI vtl@scls.lib.wi.us (608)242-4713 ILS Help Desk (608)242-4720 Twitter: vickiteal Blog: http://scls.typepad.com/link2koha/
2010/9/17 vtl@scls.lib.wi.us <vtl@scls.lib.wi.us>:
I'm wondering if it would be possible to work out a joint proposal via one or two IRC chats prior to Kohacon. I don't quite understand why individual parties need to prepare proposals. I would prefer to see a joint effort that satisfieds all parties involved.
However, I'm admittedly very naive as to how a foundation should be set up. So, if protocol requires individual proposals, could a chat or two be held where people share their ideas of what should be included in the proposals?
At the very least, I would like to know what will happen with these proposals. Will we be "voting" on them as presented? Will there be some type of integration done to get the best from all of them?
Some of us may need a little more help than others to come up to speed on this process. I have tried to do some self-education on open source foundations, but there is a lot of information out there and apparently different types of foundations. I have participated in some IRC meetings, but apparently not the ones where foundations were discussed, or it went over my head. Would someone be willing to compile the previous discussions into one document that is readily accessible?
Hi Vicki They are not proposals in the sense of things to be voted on. Propositions might be a better word. Brainstorming yet another. Like you say, there are many different ways a foundation or association could be set up. Another issue to think about, is what would the purpose of it be. The wiki is designed for collborative editing, it is does so in a much better way than IRC can. Once we have a lot of ideas and indeed a summary, like you talk about, is exactly what we are aiming for. Then we could have a much more productive meeting on IRC. Chris
Chris, et. al., On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Chris Cormack <chris@bigballofwax.co.nz> wrote:
The wiki is designed for collborative editing, it is does so in a much better way than IRC can. Once we have a lot of ideas and indeed a summary, like you talk about, is exactly what we are aiming for. Then we could have a much more productive meeting on IRC.
For what it's worth, I would prefer to see this on the wiki for a couple of reasons: 1) I'm not sure exactly what we'd be talking about. I only got half-way through the book I was reading on non-profit management. If all the ideas were on the wiki, I would be able to read them and take the time to figure out what they *really* mean. 2) transparency! Sure, a transcript is available, but what if you weren't in the meeting? Slogging through a conversation between 50 people who type 100 wpm and getting the gist, especially if you don't quite understand the issues in the first place, is going to be rough. Moreover, wikis are better understood, I think, than IRC. I have never had a library colleague say "hey, let's use IRC for collaboration," but "hey, let's use a wiki" is pretty common. 3) arranging IRC meetings for such an international group is difficult. I can't make a lot of IRC meetings due to the time (which means probably no one from PTFS/LL could, either), and those I can make often are impossible for others due to time. Even when everyone can agree on a time, it's still difficult to get everyone on IRC at the same time. Speaking for myself, life often intervenes. 4) instant messaging is great for tactical discussions, but not so great for strategic discussions. There's a reason for Robert's Rules of Order. 5) we can still use IRC and the mailing list to ask for clarifications as we're trying to edit the wiki and make clear our ideas. We could not use the wiki and the mailing list fast enough to get feedback if we were trying to clarify our ideas during an IRC meeting. I would agree with Chris that "proposal" isn't the right word for this. While I could imagine there ultimately being "proposals" on the wiki, it seems to me that right now we aren't even all sure that we're talking about the same things. At the very least, *I* am not entirely sure that I am talking about the same thing as everyone else (and I'm not entirely sure every message I have seen on this subject has been addressing the same underlying issues). Since LibLime seems to have a clear idea of what they would like to see for the Koha community (wrt a foundation), could I request that you (Amy DeGroff, Patrick Jones, John Yokley, or another, on behalf of LibLime) summarize your suggestions on the wiki so that people like me can understand the issues that you see? Anywhere on the wiki would be helpful, but I suggest adding it to the wiki under http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:Koha_Foundation since that seems to me a logical place to put this discussion. I look forward to a fruitful discussion on the future of Koha- the sooner we can put conflict behind us, the sooner we can go back to what we do best (in my case, bibliography). Regards, Jared Camins-Esakov -- Jared Camins-Esakov Freelance bibliographer, C & P Bibliography Services, LLC (phone) +1 (917) 727-3445 (e-mail) jcamins@cpbibliography.com (web) http://www.cpbibliography.com/
2010/9/16 Jared Camins-Esakov <jcamins@cpbibliography.com> I think it would be great if PTFS/LL put together a memo suggesting ways to move forward either with the 501(c)3(?) Koha foundation that already exists or with a new one if necessary. That said, I hope that should PTFS/LL agree to put together a memo, the community accepts their proposal in good faith. Since the reaction to most of their attempts to contribute have often been met with suspicion and anger, I can imagine they are reluctant to put themselves out there again. No one has to go along with the proposal if they think it is self-serving, but it would be good if we all agreed to consider the PTFS/LL proposal/memo along with any other good/bad/hare-brained/brilliant ideas that people are willing to write up. Lori Ayre Since LibLime seems to have a clear idea of what they would like to see for
the Koha community (wrt a foundation), could I request that you (Amy DeGroff, Patrick Jones, John Yokley, or another, on behalf of LibLime) summarize your suggestions on the wiki so that people like me can understand the issues that you see? Anywhere on the wiki would be helpful, but I suggest adding it to the wiki under http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:Koha_Foundation since that seems to me a logical place to put this discussion.
I look forward to a fruitful discussion on the future of Koha- the sooner we can put conflict behind us, the sooner we can go back to what we do best (in my case, bibliography).
Regards, Jared Camins-Esakov
-- Jared Camins-Esakov Freelance bibliographer, C & P Bibliography Services, LLC (phone) +1 (917) 727-3445 (e-mail) jcamins@cpbibliography.com (web) http://www.cpbibliography.com/
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
I don't know much, but I know how to stick some bare bones text into a wiki. http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Software_Foundation Please, please, please have at it. Kurt From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Lori Bowen Ayre Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 4:54 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime responses to some of yesterdays postings 2010/9/16 Jared Camins-Esakov <jcamins@cpbibliography.com> I think it would be great if PTFS/LL put together a memo suggesting ways to move forward either with the 501(c)3(?) Koha foundation that already exists or with a new one if necessary. That said, I hope that should PTFS/LL agree to put together a memo, the community accepts their proposal in good faith. Since the reaction to most of their attempts to contribute have often been met with suspicion and anger, I can imagine they are reluctant to put themselves out there again. No one has to go along with the proposal if they think it is self-serving, but it would be good if we all agreed to consider the PTFS/LL proposal/memo along with any other good/bad/hare-brained/brilliant ideas that people are willing to write up. Lori Ayre Since LibLime seems to have a clear idea of what they would like to see for the Koha community (wrt a foundation), could I request that you (Amy DeGroff, Patrick Jones, John Yokley, or another, on behalf of LibLime) summarize your suggestions on the wiki so that people like me can understand the issues that you see? Anywhere on the wiki would be helpful, but I suggest adding it to the wiki under http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:Koha_Foundation since that seems to me a logical place to put this discussion. I look forward to a fruitful discussion on the future of Koha- the sooner we can put conflict behind us, the sooner we can go back to what we do best (in my case, bibliography). Regards, Jared Camins-Esakov -- Jared Camins-Esakov Freelance bibliographer, C & P Bibliography Services, LLC (phone) +1 (917) 727-3445 (e-mail) jcamins@cpbibliography.com (web) http://www.cpbibliography.com/ _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
2010/9/17 Kurt Bodling <kbodling@mountvernon.org>:
I don’t know much, but I know how to stick some bare bones text into a wiki.
http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Software_Foundation
Following Kurts lead I have tried to collate a lot of the previous discussion into one place http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Software_Foundation/Association And added a link there to the page Kurt made, and MJ has edited. Chris
Thank you for organizing this. I have seen much of this and had forgotten it existed! It looks like much of this was drawn up for the discussion back in September, 2009. Should people continue to build on the information presented here even though it was initially posted under "Formation Founding Meeting, September, 2009"? Vicki On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Chris Cormack <chris@bigballofwax.co.nz>wrote:
2010/9/17 Kurt Bodling <kbodling@mountvernon.org>:
I don’t know much, but I know how to stick some bare bones text into a wiki.
http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Software_Foundation
Following Kurts lead
I have tried to collate a lot of the previous discussion into one place http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Software_Foundation/Association
And added a link there to the page Kurt made, and MJ has edited.
Chris _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Vicki Teal Lovely Helping our 52 member libraries provide the best possible service to the public. ILS Project Manager South Central Library System Madison, WI vtl@scls.lib.wi.us (608)242-4713 ILS Help Desk (608)242-4720 Twitter: vickiteal Blog: http://scls.typepad.com/link2koha/
On 18 September 2010 08:22, vtl@scls.lib.wi.us <vtl@scls.lib.wi.us> wrote:
Thank you for organizing this. I have seen much of this and had forgotten it existed!
It looks like much of this was drawn up for the discussion back in September, 2009. Should people continue to build on the information presented here even though it was initially posted under "Formation Founding Meeting, September, 2009"?
Don't see why not, it's still all valuable discussion, and it wont get fragmented all over the place if we keep it one area. Chris
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:23 PM, vtl@scls.lib.wi.us <vtl@scls.lib.wi.us> wrote:
I'm wondering if it would be possible to work out a joint proposal via one or two IRC chats prior to Kohacon. I don't quite understand why individual parties need to prepare proposals. I would prefer to see a joint effort that satisfieds all parties involved.
However, I'm admittedly very naive as to how a foundation should be set up. So, if protocol requires individual proposals, could a chat or two be held where people share their ideas of what should be included in the proposals?
Chatting tends to be very non-productive on issues where many people have many different ideas about what the right decision is. A read through the irc logs from meetings discussing re-licensing will serve to prove this point. Things digress very quickly in this context.
At the very least, I would like to know what will happen with these proposals. Will we be "voting" on them as presented? Will there be some type of integration done to get the best from all of them?
As Chris Cormack pointed out: these are proposals, not line items for a vote. They are far more detailed. I seem to remember several proposals floated around during the founding of KUDOS. Perhaps that may serve as a point of reference for you in this aspect of the process. Presenting a pre-compiled, detailed proposal will cut loads of time off of the opening rounds of discussions. As for integration... this is another point in favor of written proposals... we have the option of cherry-picking should we so desire.
Some of us may need a little more help than others to come up to speed on this process. I have tried to do some self-education on open source foundations, but there is a lot of information out there and apparently different types of foundations. I have participated in some IRC meetings, but apparently not the ones where foundations were discussed, or it went over my head. Would someone be willing to compile the previous discussions into one document that is readily accessible?
There are plenty of resources on the internet regarding this. You can search both the list archives and the irc log for discussions that have occurred in the past. I'm also sure that Thomas Duklath will weigh in at some point with a very through explanation of this sort of thing. Kind Regards, Chris
Having gone through the process of creating a 501(c)3 in the United States, and one that has recieved IRS-blessing (which as far as I can tell, the Koha Software Foundation in Ohio has not yet received - not surprisingly, it takes a while and what was submitted to the State of Ohio wasn't anywhere near as detailed as the IRS would need to approve it. I have no idea if they submitted the paper work to the IRS not.)*, I can tell you that it is not a simple process and too many cooks will most likely spoil the soup. I doubt it is any different, and in fact may likely be more so in other countries. I think starting the discussions around concrete proposals will be a much better approach. That doesn't mean that pieces of each can't be crossed off, added, combined, or changed by the community, but a discussion with a large group of people via e-mail or IRC chat starting from scratch is very unlikely to be productive. Edward * To search for organizations granted 501(c)3 status by the US federal government, see http://www.irs.gov/app/pub-78/ Whiel there are some thigns that come up with Koha, the oen from Athens does not. The ones that do come up appear to be family foundations. --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Chris Nighswonger <cnighswonger@foundations.edu> wrote: From: Chris Nighswonger <cnighswonger@foundations.edu> Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime responses to some of yesterdays postings To: "vtl@scls.lib.wi.us" <vtl@scls.lib.wi.us> Cc: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 4:10 PM On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:23 PM, vtl@scls.lib.wi.us <vtl@scls.lib.wi.us> wrote:
I'm wondering if it would be possible to work out a joint proposal via one or two IRC chats prior to Kohacon. I don't quite understand why individual parties need to prepare proposals. I would prefer to see a joint effort that satisfieds all parties involved.
However, I'm admittedly very naive as to how a foundation should be set up. So, if protocol requires individual proposals, could a chat or two be held where people share their ideas of what should be included in the proposals?
Chatting tends to be very non-productive on issues where many people have many different ideas about what the right decision is. A read through the irc logs from meetings discussing re-licensing will serve to prove this point. Things digress very quickly in this context.
At the very least, I would like to know what will happen with these proposals. Will we be "voting" on them as presented? Will there be some type of integration done to get the best from all of them?
As Chris Cormack pointed out: these are proposals, not line items for a vote. They are far more detailed. I seem to remember several proposals floated around during the founding of KUDOS. Perhaps that may serve as a point of reference for you in this aspect of the process. Presenting a pre-compiled, detailed proposal will cut loads of time off of the opening rounds of discussions. As for integration... this is another point in favor of written proposals... we have the option of cherry-picking should we so desire.
Some of us may need a little more help than others to come up to speed on this process. I have tried to do some self-education on open source foundations, but there is a lot of information out there and apparently different types of foundations. I have participated in some IRC meetings, but apparently not the ones where foundations were discussed, or it went over my head. Would someone be willing to compile the previous discussions into one document that is readily accessible?
There are plenty of resources on the internet regarding this. You can search both the list archives and the irc log for discussions that have occurred in the past. I'm also sure that Thomas Duklath will weigh in at some point with a very through explanation of this sort of thing. Kind Regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
participants (8)
-
Chris Cormack -
Chris Nighswonger -
ed c -
Jared Camins-Esakov -
John Yokley -
Kurt Bodling -
Lori Bowen Ayre -
vtl＠scls.lib.wi.us