Re: [Koha] Message from PTFS/LibLime
--- On Fri, 9/17/10, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote: <...>
Huh? This seems to be ignoring that LibLime has *already* organised and funded the creation of a Koha Software Foundation in Ohio! Registration number 1839255 created 26 Feb 2009, but no-one else knows
That was Liblime and not PTFS. Please don't cause issues by confounding the issue with actions of past players.
what its rules are, community participants have asked after that foundation and not got a useful answer, and so on and so on.
As far as I know, no-one has proposed using this entity created by someone that isn't involved in this discussion, so whatever rules it has doesn't matter. Even, if someone does, the only rules that would matter are the ones that say how to change it. Besides, tis is an Ohio entity and not even recognized by the US government as a 501(c)3 or similar organization, so a lot of work would need to go into doing that. Registering in a state is one thing, getting through the United Satates' IRS is another.
What is the situation with that foundation and how can it be turned over to the community?
PTFS has already said they are looking into this. They may not even be the rightful controllers of it. Certainly the contact information is not theirs.
Does it have to be a 501(c)3?
This is why we need proposals. Instead of e-mail of IRC.. Propose something else if you don't like this instead of complaining.
The US's charity law isn't all that great and its banking system is awful.
Why isn't the US non-profit law great (note that charity law and non-profit law are not the same although related)? All banking systems are horrible. Instead of lobbing acquisitions about US law, please point to specifics and make a proposal that can be responded to.
Could it be an association rather than a foundation?
Again, this is why we need proposals. If this is what you think is best, please propose it with details why an association is better than a foundation. And what you mean be the difference as they can be the same thing legally in some jurisdictions. <...> Edward
Le 17/09/2010 15:32, ed c a écrit :
The US's charity law isn't all that great and its banking system is awful.
Why isn't the US non-profit law great (note that charity law and non-profit law are not the same although related)? All banking systems are horrible. Instead of lobbing acquisitions about US law, please point to specifics and make a proposal that can be responded to.
Just FYI : here in France, there is a NPO bank (yes, really, it can exist !) that charges 0€ / year for NPOs (that we call "association loi 1901" in france, because they're related to a 109 years old law !) I don't think it's too much ;-) (that's also BibLibre bank, but as we are a FPO company, we pay ;-) . It's also Kohala bank -kohala is the french NPO to support koha-) but the bank or banking system is, imo, the less important thing to decide how to do the "KSF" ! my 2cts -- Paul POULAIN http://www.biblibre.com Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc Tel : (33) 4 91 81 35 08
ed c wrote:
--- On Fri, 9/17/10, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
Huh? This seems to be ignoring that LibLime has *already* organised and funded the creation of a Koha Software Foundation in Ohio! Registration number 1839255 created 26 Feb 2009, but no-one else knows
That was Liblime and not PTFS. Please don't cause issues by confounding the issue with actions of past players.
I'm confused: I thought PTFS had acquired LibLime and all Koha operations had transferred to PTFS. After all, that is what the press release said back in March. In other words, LibLime is now PTFS. So it comes as a bit of a surprise to me if some Koha things did not transfer. I wonder if that came as a surprise to PTFS's leaders too. At the time I wrote my last email, I wasn't aware of PTFS's reaction because it wasn't in the same thread. Please try not to break thread. (ed c - you're one of those breaking up the thread.)
what its rules are, community participants have asked after that foundation and not got a useful answer, and so on and so on.
As far as I know, no-one has proposed using this entity created by someone that isn't involved in this discussion, so whatever rules it has doesn't matter. [...]
It has been proposed before, which is why it was rather disappointing to have it proposed again while ignoring the outcome of that past proposal. Those who do not learn from history... and so on.
Does it have to be a 501(c)3?
This is why we need proposals. Instead of e-mail of IRC.. Propose something else if you don't like this instead of complaining.
As those who have read the list for a while may remember, I've already proposed something else. Broadly speaking, my preference is: 1. forming a non-profit marketing co-operative (like OCLC) using model rules from the national body of whatever country it is registered in; 2. joining an existing association like www.spi-inc.org; 3. continuing with HLT holding assets; 4. setting up some other new and Koha-specific association; 5. joining an existing foundation; 6. setting up some other new foundation. I think we must try not to underestimate the start-up and overhead costs of forming new bodies, nor the extra risks of foundations, but I feel that the stable model rules and other benefits of a co-operative would make it worth starting a new one.
The US's charity law isn't all that great and its banking system is awful.
Why isn't the US non-profit law great (note that charity law and non-profit law are not the same although related)?
Indeed, charity law and non-profit law are not the same, so why ask me about US non-profit law when I criticised US charity law? Basically the problem there is it doesn't often exist.
All banking systems are horrible. Instead of lobbing acquisitions about US law, please point to specifics and make a proposal that can be responded to.
One specific problem is: "One of the weaknesses in U.S. payment systems is how easy it is to create bogus checks and deposit them at a bank," said Michael Herd, a spokesman for NACHA/The Electronics Payments Association, which sets rules for electronic bank transfers. -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7914159/ Of course account and routing numbers are fairly easy to obtain, printed on every cheque and used for money transfers. No banking system is perfect, but I was surprised to discover just how insecure the US one seems. On my last trip there, I took a special-purpose MasterCard and closed the account soon after returning. Not only is the US not chip-and-PIN, but most vendors don't even look at the signature or hologram.
Could it be an association rather than a foundation?
Again, this is why we need proposals. If this is what you think is best, please propose it with details why an association is better than a foundation. And what you mean be the difference as they can be the same thing legally in some jurisdictions.
They may use a similar legal form, but they still aren't the same thing, even if they are sometimes confused and most countries don't control the names. A foundation is a system whose founders have a continuing key role, possibly with funding through a legacy or endowment, and usually including picking the future leaders in some way. An association is an organisation run by a contributing membership in some way. I feel an association is better because I don't think those involved in Koha now (or some subset of them) should get special treatment for all time. We don't get special treatment in the code, so why in the project? Please see above for a summary of proposals. Hope that explains, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. Webmaster, Debian Developer, Past Koha RM, statistician, former lecturer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire for Koha work http://www.software.coop/products/koha
--- On Fri, 9/17/10, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote: <...>
At the time I wrote my last email, I wasn't aware of PTFS's reaction because it wasn't in the same thread. Please try not to break thread. (ed c - you're one of those breaking up the thread.)
I'm sorry if my mail client is not up to your high standards.
Why isn't the US non-profit law great (note that
charity law and
non-profit law are not the same although related)?
Indeed, charity law and non-profit law are not the same, so why ask me about US non-profit law when I criticised US charity law? Basically the problem there is it doesn't often exist.
Because you did so while referring to a 501(c)3, which is organized under non-profit law.
All banking systems are horrible. Instead of lobbing acquisitions about US law, please point to specifics and make a proposal that can be responded to.
One specific problem is:
"One of the weaknesses in U.S. payment systems is how easy it is to create bogus checks and deposit them at a bank," said Michael Herd, a spokesman for NACHA/The Electronics Payments Association, which sets rules for electronic bank transfers. -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7914159/
Of course account and routing numbers are fairly easy to obtain, printed on every cheque and used for money transfers.
No banking system is perfect, but I was surprised to discover just how insecure the US one seems. On my last trip there, I took a special-purpose MasterCard and closed the account soon after returning. Not only is the US not chip-and-PIN, but most vendors don't even look at the signature or hologram.
And this is why there are no non-profit organizations based in the US, I guess? <..> Edward
ed c wrote:
--- On Fri, 9/17/10, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote: <...>
At the time I wrote my last email, I wasn't aware of PTFS's reaction because it wasn't in the same thread. Please try not to break thread. (ed c - you're one of those breaking up the thread.)
I'm sorry if my mail client is not up to your high standards.
Please don't get sarcastic. It's not a high standard. The metadata headers for threading have been around for 35 years, so it's a pretty basic error if a mail client can't use them. But the latest message appeared in-thread, so I don't really understand why the thread was broken previously. Oh well, I was just explaining why I hadn't seen PTFS's reaction in time. [...]
Indeed, charity law and non-profit law are not the same, so why ask me about US non-profit law when I criticised US charity law? Basically the problem there is it doesn't often exist.
Because you did so while referring to a 501(c)3, which is organized under non-profit law.
I feel the central Koha project body should be a charity. Is that even possible in the US?
"One of the weaknesses in U.S. payment systems is how easy it is to create bogus checks and deposit them at a bank," said Michael Herd, a spokesman for NACHA/The Electronics Payments Association, which sets rules for electronic bank transfers. -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7914159/ [...] And this is why there are no non-profit organizations based in the US, I guess?
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. :-) Having to watch your bank account closely and be cautious about who sees your cheques and transfer details is another overhead cost which I feel means the Koha community should seriously consider being based outside the US, in some country with a better banking system. Hope that explains, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. Webmaster, Debian Developer, Past Koha RM, statistician, former lecturer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire for Koha work http://www.software.coop/products/koha
participants (3)
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ed c -
MJ Ray -
Paul Poulain