Foundation forming #koha IRC meeting 29 October
Please remember that the next Koha foundation forming IRC meeting will be held on #koha 29 October 2009 at 19:00 UTC+0. Time Converters: http://tinyurl.com/yjvlsam http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2009-10-29%2019:00%20UTC+0 Agenda: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnote... It is a wiki. Fix any problems and write your own agenda items. Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
Dang. I'll be busy again. Be sure to decide how much the community is willing to spend on purchasing the assets it wants to acquire. Thanks, -- Ben On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
Please remember that the next Koha foundation forming IRC meeting will be held on #koha 29 October 2009 at 19:00 UTC+0.
Time Converters: http://tinyurl.com/yjvlsam http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2009-10-29%2019:00%20UTC+0
Agenda:
http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnote... It is a wiki. Fix any problems and write your own agenda items.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Reply inline: On Wed, October 28, 2009 20:37, Ben Ide wrote:
Dang. I'll be busy again.
Be sure to decide how much the community is willing to spend on purchasing the assets it wants to acquire.
Ben, why should the community necessarily need to purchase assets or what assets would the community necessarily need to purchase? Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783 [...]
Thomas Dukleth asked:
On Wed, October 28, 2009 20:37, Ben Ide wrote:
Dang. I'll be busy again.
Be sure to decide how much the community is willing to spend on purchasing the assets it wants to acquire.
Ben, why should the community necessarily need to purchase assets or what assets would the community necessarily need to purchase?
I'm not sure that all asset holders have agreed to donate all assets, so it seems a worthwhile question. More generally, isn't it fair to at least reimburse any out-of-pocket expenses for registrations of things like domain names? So I'll add these three topics (expenses, purchase and amount) to the agenda. Thanks both, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster and LMS developer at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op
The capacity of any Koha foundation to fulfil purposes which some people have expressed a desire for it to fulfil will be limited to the resources which people donate to it. Donated resources may be legal registrations, such as trademarks and domains; material assets, such as computer servers; monetary resources; or people's time. Donation of some monetary resources would be needed for the community to maintain some assets in the most minimal manner even if all other resources might be donated. Remainder of reply inline: Original Subject: Re: [Koha] Foundation forming #koha IRC meeting 29 October On Thu, October 29, 2009 10:28, MJ Ray wrote:
Thomas Dukleth asked:
Dang. I'll be busy again.
Be sure to decide how much the community is willing to spend on
On Wed, October 28, 2009 20:37, Ben Ide wrote: purchasing
the assets it wants to acquire.
Ben, why should the community necessarily need to purchase assets or what assets would the community necessarily need to purchase?
I'm not sure that all asset holders have agreed to donate all assets, so it seems a worthwhile question.
More generally, isn't it fair to at least reimburse any out-of-pocket expenses for registrations of things like domain names?
It would certainly be fair to reimburse those who need reimbursement for reasonable expenses incurred to secure registrations such as domain names. Not everyone would necessarily be expected to have the capacity to donate assets which a Koha foundation would need to function properly without reimbursement of reasonable expenses. The community would first need to know what reimbursements are being requested and to have resources with which to pay for reimbursements which might be needed. The community cannot effectively decide how much is reasonable to pay in an a priori manner. Those without the capacity to donate resources would need to inform the community what reimbursement is needed. The Koha foundation would need to receive some monetary assets. The community would then need to decide whether particular reimbursements are reasonable in themselves and an appropriate use of community resources. The wording of Ben Idle's question seemed to me as if it might imply that some may seek more than reasonable expenses as a condition of releasing some assets which the community may need. I questioned whether purchases as distinct from reimbursements would necessary. (I recognise that the distinction would not be a linguistic distinction in all uses of the word purchase but the overall effect of how Ben put the issue implied a distinction to me.) I hope that no party places the community in a position to have decide about whether to pay more than reasonable expenses for any needed assets. I hope that in most cases that parties will have the capacity to merely donate assets as fundamental as legal registrations. I expect that generally those who had the capacity to acquire legal registrations in the first place would have the capacity to donate them but I recognise that might not always be true. Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783 [...]
Ide. I'm not Eric's brother. ;-) And you needn't assume or read into anything I write. I'm just not that deep. :-) Now, let's say I buy out a company or two and I get certain assets from those buyouts. How much do you think I should charge to resell those assets to anyone else, even a foundation? And how would donating those assets benefit me to the same compensatory level that everyone in the foundation would achieve? I expend capital to expand my company and ensure continued use of important resources, and then I give it away? To people with their own companies, many of which compete directly with mine? If you think reimbursement of DNS costs and maybe trademark application fees would cover the bill, I would say you are wrong by a considerable magnitude. I might even raise the price, knowing that there's a demand for these assets. But that's just me, being shallow. :-D Thanks, -- Ben On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com>wrote:
The capacity of any Koha foundation to fulfil purposes which some people have expressed a desire for it to fulfil will be limited to the resources which people donate to it. Donated resources may be legal registrations, such as trademarks and domains; material assets, such as computer servers; monetary resources; or people's time. Donation of some monetary resources would be needed for the community to maintain some assets in the most minimal manner even if all other resources might be donated.
Remainder of reply inline:
Original Subject: Re: [Koha] Foundation forming #koha IRC meeting 29 October On Thu, October 29, 2009 10:28, MJ Ray wrote:
Thomas Dukleth asked:
Dang. I'll be busy again.
Be sure to decide how much the community is willing to spend on
On Wed, October 28, 2009 20:37, Ben Ide wrote: purchasing
the assets it wants to acquire.
Ben, why should the community necessarily need to purchase assets or what assets would the community necessarily need to purchase?
I'm not sure that all asset holders have agreed to donate all assets, so it seems a worthwhile question.
More generally, isn't it fair to at least reimburse any out-of-pocket expenses for registrations of things like domain names?
It would certainly be fair to reimburse those who need reimbursement for reasonable expenses incurred to secure registrations such as domain names. Not everyone would necessarily be expected to have the capacity to donate assets which a Koha foundation would need to function properly without reimbursement of reasonable expenses.
The community would first need to know what reimbursements are being requested and to have resources with which to pay for reimbursements which might be needed. The community cannot effectively decide how much is reasonable to pay in an a priori manner.
Those without the capacity to donate resources would need to inform the community what reimbursement is needed. The Koha foundation would need to receive some monetary assets. The community would then need to decide whether particular reimbursements are reasonable in themselves and an appropriate use of community resources.
The wording of Ben Idle's question seemed to me as if it might imply that some may seek more than reasonable expenses as a condition of releasing some assets which the community may need. I questioned whether purchases as distinct from reimbursements would necessary. (I recognise that the distinction would not be a linguistic distinction in all uses of the word purchase but the overall effect of how Ben put the issue implied a distinction to me.) I hope that no party places the community in a position to have decide about whether to pay more than reasonable expenses for any needed assets.
I hope that in most cases that parties will have the capacity to merely donate assets as fundamental as legal registrations. I expect that generally those who had the capacity to acquire legal registrations in the first place would have the capacity to donate them but I recognise that might not always be true.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
[...]
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
2009/10/30 Ben Ide <benide@gmail.com>:
Ide. I'm not Eric's brother. ;-) And you needn't assume or read into anything I write. I'm just not that deep. :-) Now, let's say I buy out a company or two and I get certain assets from those buyouts. How much do you think I should charge to resell those assets to anyone else, even a foundation? And how would donating those assets benefit me to the same compensatory level that everyone in the foundation would achieve? I expend capital to expand my company and ensure continued use of important resources, and then I give it away? To people with their own companies, many of which compete directly with mine?
Which company bought out which company? Or is this merely a hypothetical? Or is a company about to be bought? Is someone attempting to rewrite history again?
If you think reimbursement of DNS costs and maybe trademark application fees would cover the bill, I would say you are wrong by a considerable magnitude. I might even raise the price, knowing that there's a demand for these assets. But that's just me, being shallow. :-D
That would be you acting in complete contradiction to your word, given on a number of occasions, not just you being shallow. (Speaking in the hypothetical here also) Chris
Purely hypothetical, of course. So no reinterpretation of history is required. And why would I go back on my word when everyone I promised has been so pleasant, patient, and understand? Hypothetically speak. :-) Thanks, -- Ben On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Chris Cormack <chris@bigballofwax.co.nz>wrote:
2009/10/30 Ben Ide <benide@gmail.com>:
Ide. I'm not Eric's brother. ;-) And you needn't assume or read into anything I write. I'm just not that deep. :-) Now, let's say I buy out a company or two and I get certain assets from those buyouts. How much do you think I should charge to resell those
to anyone else, even a foundation? And how would donating those assets benefit me to the same compensatory level that everyone in the foundation would achieve? I expend capital to expand my company and ensure continued use of important resources, and then I give it away? To people with
assets their
own companies, many of which compete directly with mine?
Which company bought out which company? Or is this merely a hypothetical? Or is a company about to be bought?
Is someone attempting to rewrite history again?
If you think reimbursement of DNS costs and maybe trademark application fees would cover the bill, I would say you are wrong by a considerable magnitude. I might even raise the price, knowing that there's a demand for these assets. But that's just me, being shallow. :-D
That would be you acting in complete contradiction to your word, given on a number of occasions, not just you being shallow. (Speaking in the hypothetical here also)
Chris
2009/10/30 Ben Ide <benide@gmail.com>:
Purely hypothetical, of course. So no reinterpretation of history is required.
Ah so it was a straw man. Excellent we have cleared that up.
And why would I go back on my word when everyone I promised has been so pleasant, patient, and understand? Hypothetically speak. :-)
Yeah, over a year of patience is just way too short, and of course everyone else has been pleasant too, and haven't slandered people at all? Ben do you enjoy trying to start fights? I'm just wondering what your motivation is for being what I can only construe as purposefully offensive as often as you can on public forums. Including my blog. Chris
One time on your blog and I apologized publicly, as I do any time I offend. I have the minority opinion here. You certainly don't have to listen to me. I only wish you would, rather than assuming that I mean to cause offense or start fights. It's my opinion -- and that's all I have to offer on this topic -- that I represent a much larger community of Koha users and potential users. Or at least a point of view different from the general accept one here. If you would like to continue tuning me out, fine. I know my place here, so my feeling won't be hurt. So long as no one reposts private messages or pretends to know what I want/need/think, it's all good to me. Thank you. -- Ben, gang of one On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Chris Cormack <chris@bigballofwax.co.nz>wrote:
2009/10/30 Ben Ide <benide@gmail.com>:
Purely hypothetical, of course. So no reinterpretation of history is required.
Ah so it was a straw man. Excellent we have cleared that up.
And why would I go back on my word when everyone I promised has been so pleasant, patient, and understand? Hypothetically speak. :-)
Yeah, over a year of patience is just way too short, and of course everyone else has been pleasant too, and haven't slandered people at all?
Ben do you enjoy trying to start fights? I'm just wondering what your motivation is for being what I can only construe as purposefully offensive as often as you can on public forums. Including my blog.
Chris
2009/10/30 Ben Ide <benide@gmail.com>:
One time on your blog and I apologized publicly, as I do any time I offend. I have the minority opinion here. You certainly don't have to listen to me. I only wish you would, rather than assuming that I mean to cause offense or start fights. It's my opinion -- and that's all I have to offer on this topic -- that I represent a much larger community of Koha users and potential users. Or at least a point of view different from the general accept one here. If you would like to continue tuning me out, fine. I know my place here, so my feeling won't be hurt. So long as no one reposts private messages or pretends to know what I want/need/think, it's all good to me. Thank you. -- Ben, gang of one
I call, you win. I only represent myself when I post from this mailing address. Not anyone else. I have tried to add some perspective to this issue, and give some history so why it is a big deal could become clear. If I have offended you, which it seems I have, or have offended other Koha users. I unreservedly apologise for that. If you feel I haven't listened to you, then I apologise for that also. I love Koha, and I love working with Koha and Koha users, and want the community to continue to grow and thrive. That is where I am coming from. The fact that I feel that I have to post these messages makes these last few months the worst of the 10 years I have been involved in Koha. I do know though that there are fantastic people in the community though, so I know it will get better. I do try to listen to every Koha user who takes the time to email the list, yourself included, I just have a hard time knowing where you are coming from. I will no longer attempt to push back on you, or to try to debate your points, as it seems I did so poorly. Once again for any offense I have caused to any Koha users, I apologise. Chris
Salvete! Participating voluntarily in a Foundation usually equates to tax benefits. So yes, there is a monetary reason a corpo would choose to cooperate. Domain names are sometimes literally a dime a dozen, so someone choosing to squat on one would hypothetically be acting in a pennywise pound foolish manner. Were this *not* an open source project, I would tend to agree with your opinions. However, it is. Corporations that do not share alike will be punished when their users flock en masse to corporations that are good citizens. I wouldn't think that this were necessary to point out. Furthermore, Libraries operate on non traditional cycles if you give it a few seconds of thought. We lend on goodwill that you'll return our stuff later. This has worked against cynical better judgment for thousands of years, and I can only imagine as a strange cultural trapping will continue to do so. Cheers, Brooke
Reply inline: On Thu, October 29, 2009 16:57, Ben Ide wrote:
Ide. I'm not Eric's brother. ;-)
Ben, sorry for mangling the spelling of your surname. I am accustomed to having my surname mangled. The one advantage of a medium length often mispronounced surname is that is not easily confused with a more familiar name. [...] Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
Reply inline:
On Thu, October 29, 2009 16:57, Ben Ide wrote:
Ide. I'm not Eric's brother. ;-)
Ben, sorry for mangling the spelling of your surname.
I am accustomed to having my surname mangled. The one advantage of a medium length often mispronounced surname is that is not easily confused with a more familiar name.
Speaking of mangled surnames.... Mine is absolutely butchered as a rule... ;-) Kind Regards, Chris
Meeting notes for the #koha IRC Koha foundation forming meeting 29 October 2009 have been posted at http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnote... . It is a wiki. Please make any needed corrections or other improvements. The next Koha foundation forming meeting will be held on Thursday 3 December 2009. The time is tentatively set for 19.00 UTC +0. However, people for whom that time is especially problematic such as people in India will be consulted to consider rotating the meeting time to an alternate time for fairness. The meeting log is available at http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/2009-10-29#i_330027 . Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
Please remember that the next foundation forming #koha IRC meeting will be held today Thursday 3 December 2009 at 19:00 UTC+0. Time Converter: http://tinyurl.com/ygcgn9f http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2009-12-03%2019:00%20UTC+0 Agenda: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnote... . It is a wiki. Fix the agenda or add your own agenda items. Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
Sorry for the late hour of this reminder posted less than two hours before the meeting, however, a late reminder is better than none. Please remember that the next general #koha IRC meeting will beheld on #koha 2 December 2009 at 10:00 UTC+0. Time Converter: http://tinyurl.com/yj5urfr Agenda: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnote... It is a wiki. Add your own agenda items. Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
Where can I find the notes/summary from this meeting? I was unable to attend. Thanks Nicole On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Thomas Dukleth <kohalist@agogme.com> wrote:
Sorry for the late hour of this reminder posted less than two hours before the meeting, however, a late reminder is better than none.
Please remember that the next general #koha IRC meeting will beheld on #koha 2 December 2009 at 10:00 UTC+0.
Time Converter: http://tinyurl.com/yj5urfr
Agenda: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnote... It is a wiki. Add your own agenda items.
Thomas Dukleth Agogme 109 E 9th Street, 3D New York, NY 10003 USA http://www.agogme.com +1 212-674-3783
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
2009/12/2 Nicole Engard <nengard@gmail.com>
Where can I find the notes/summary from this meeting? I was unable to attend.
chris_n2: "meeting notes will be up by 0200 UTC+0 03-12-2008... earlier if I have time" http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/2009-12-02#i_350747 I'm guessing the year is slightly off, but otherwise... ;-) Regards, Magnus Enger Libriotech
LOL - thanks Magnus and Chris_N :) On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Magnus Enger <magnus@enger.priv.no> wrote:
2009/12/2 Nicole Engard <nengard@gmail.com>
Where can I find the notes/summary from this meeting? I was unable to attend.
chris_n2: "meeting notes will be up by 0200 UTC+0 03-12-2008... earlier if I have time" http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/2009-12-02#i_350747
I'm guessing the year is slightly off, but otherwise... ;-)
Regards, Magnus Enger Libriotech
participants (8)
-
Ben Ide -
Chris Cormack -
Chris Nighswonger -
M. Brooke Helman -
Magnus Enger -
MJ Ray -
Nicole Engard -
Thomas Dukleth