Thank you Marshall, I agree with many of the points listed in this message. Chris, what is your biggest concern other than the fact that this data is not free to download? Marshall, would you be looking for some form of compensation for us to list this on the KC website? How can we reach a middle ground here? It would be extremely unfortunate to pass up on this fantastic tool because of our inability to work together in a way that benefits both of us. Maybe this is a topic we can discuss and vote on during the next general meeting, and I would love to hear other’s opinions. My role as the Community Marketer (or whatever the role is called) is to effectively promote Koha to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, with zero budget. I see this map hitting all of those points. All the best, -Nate * Marshall Breeding (marshall.breeding@librarytechnology.org <mailto:marshall.breeding@librarytechnology.org>) wrote:
I have been following the discussion about how the Koha community can better market itself, including using a map display to emphasize its global impact.
Naturally, I would be happy to have the map generated from Library Technology Guides to be used. Doing so would help me ensure that my registry of libraries using Koha is more complete since libraries might be more motivated to be included. Regardless of whether the Koha community decides to rely more on my mapping tool, I will continue to try to obtain data on the many libraries using Koha that are not yet registered on my site or any other database. I continue to think that Koha is most likely the most implemented ILS, but I do not yet have the data to validate that assertion.
The purity of working only with open source software and open access data seems to me like an impossible goal. Richard Stallman, who I heard speak last year, takes this concept to its logical conclusion, and ends up with quite a limited realm of software or data which meet his tests for purity. Is the Koha community comfortable using the Google Map API, for example, since it is based on a closed and proprietary information infrastructure and underlying software components that may or may not be open source? Or does it plan to invent its own global mapping ecosystem?
I have looked at the Hea tool and I have a hard time imagining it gaining the functionality of a global mapping visual and becoming well populated by the mechanisms provided. Since it is generated mechanically through each instance of Koha, it will be difficult to translate this data to represent the libraries that are actually using Koha in production. Many of the entries shown now (http://hea.koha-community.org/libraries <http://hea.koha-community.org/libraries>) seem to be duplicates or test implementations. Its single entry for the NExpress Shared Catalog is represented by 53 libraries on my maps. I don’t see hea as having the structure has the ability to represent the branches associated with a library system or consortia and many other aspects of tracking the libraries which use any given automation system. I think that many, if not the majority, of Koha implementations globally are based on older or forked versions of Koha, making it difficult or impossible for them to automatically contribute their data to Hea.
I also wonder why the Koha development community would divert resources into re-creating such a tool from other efforts to develop and promote Koha. Having maintained a registry of libraries for almost two decades, my experience tells me that it is much more difficult to create and maintain a well-organized list than others might imagine.
I have also just re-written the map tool on Library Technology Guides to generate the display more quickly when there are a very large number of libraries. Although it depends on how quickly the Google API responds, it now builds the maps in a few seconds, compared to almost a minute previously. I have also added some basic search selection tools at the bottom of the page:
https://librarytechnology.org/libraries/map.pl?ILS=Koha <https://librarytechnology.org/libraries/map.pl?ILS=Koha>
I’ll be interested to hear further discussion on the topic.
The data in the libraries.org registry available to use through the site without cost, but not for download in bulk. More information my approach to the data is here: https://librarytechnology.org/web/breeding/terms-of-service/ As noted, the data within Library Technology Guides is not offered via an open data license, but I do provide extensive data services to anyone interested without cost. I do not expect financial compensation from the Koha community for making use of the map visualization or other tools provided through Library Technology Guides. I would be delighted for the Koha Community to make use of these resources in its efforts to promote Koha. -marshall Marshall Breeding Editor, Library Technology Guides www.librarytechnology.org Marshall.breeding@librarytechnology.org twitter.com/mbreeding -----Original Message----- From: Koha [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Nathan Curulla Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 3:32 PM To: Koha Subject: Re: [Koha] Koha Maps Thank you Marshall, I agree with many of the points listed in this message. Chris, what is your biggest concern other than the fact that this data is not free to download? Marshall, would you be looking for some form of compensation for us to list this on the KC website? How can we reach a middle ground here? It would be extremely unfortunate to pass up on this fantastic tool because of our inability to work together in a way that benefits both of us. Maybe this is a topic we can discuss and vote on during the next general meeting, and I would love to hear other’s opinions. My role as the Community Marketer (or whatever the role is called) is to effectively promote Koha to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, with zero budget. I see this map hitting all of those points. All the best, -Nate * Marshall Breeding (marshall.breeding@librarytechnology.org <mailto:marshall.breeding@librarytechnology.org>) wrote:
I have been following the discussion about how the Koha community can better market itself, including using a map display to emphasize its global impact.
Naturally, I would be happy to have the map generated from Library Technology Guides to be used. Doing so would help me ensure that my registry of libraries using Koha is more complete since libraries might be more motivated to be included. Regardless of whether the Koha community decides to rely more on my mapping tool, I will continue to try to obtain data on the many libraries using Koha that are not yet registered on my site or any other database. I continue to think that Koha is most likely the most implemented ILS, but I do not yet have the data to validate that assertion.
The purity of working only with open source software and open access data seems to me like an impossible goal. Richard Stallman, who I heard speak last year, takes this concept to its logical conclusion, and ends up with quite a limited realm of software or data which meet his tests for purity. Is the Koha community comfortable using the Google Map API, for example, since it is based on a closed and proprietary information infrastructure and underlying software components that may or may not be open source? Or does it plan to invent its own global mapping ecosystem?
I have looked at the Hea tool and I have a hard time imagining it gaining the functionality of a global mapping visual and becoming well populated by the mechanisms provided. Since it is generated mechanically through each instance of Koha, it will be difficult to translate this data to represent the libraries that are actually using Koha in production. Many of the entries shown now (http://hea.koha-community.org/libraries <http://hea.koha-community.org/libraries>) seem to be duplicates or test implementations. Its single entry for the NExpress Shared Catalog is represented by 53 libraries on my maps. I don’t see hea as having the structure has the ability to represent the branches associated with a library system or consortia and many other aspects of tracking the libraries which use any given automation system. I think that many, if not the majority, of Koha implementations globally are based on older or forked versions of Koha, making it difficult or impossible for them to automatically contribute their data to Hea.
I also wonder why the Koha development community would divert resources into re-creating such a tool from other efforts to develop and promote Koha. Having maintained a registry of libraries for almost two decades, my experience tells me that it is much more difficult to create and maintain a well-organized list than others might imagine.
I have also just re-written the map tool on Library Technology Guides to generate the display more quickly when there are a very large number of libraries. Although it depends on how quickly the Google API responds, it now builds the maps in a few seconds, compared to almost a minute previously. I have also added some basic search selection tools at the bottom of the page:
https://librarytechnology.org/libraries/map.pl?ILS=Koha <https://librarytechnology.org/libraries/map.pl?ILS=Koha>
I’ll be interested to hear further discussion on the topic.
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz https://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
As noted, the data within Library Technology Guides is not offered via an open data license, but I do provide extensive data services to anyone interested without cost.
I can imagine some reasons why one would not want to explicitly offer data under an open license: - Fear that access to the data will become a financial burden (hosting/data limits). - Unwillingness to develop a method of access to the data. - Unwillingness to make a commitment to maintaining the data and/or API in the future. - Desire to reserve the right to monetize access to the data in the future. Some of those concerns can be mitigated by cooperation. -- Owen -- Web Developer Athens County Public Libraries http://www.myacpl.org
+1 François Charbonnier, Bibl. prof. / Chef de produits Tél. : (888) 604-2627 francois.charbonnier@inLibro.com <mailto:francois.charbonnier@inLibro.com> inLibro | Spécialistes en technologies documentaires | www.inLibro.com <http://www.inLibro.com> Le 2016-12-21 à 10:14, Owen Leonard a écrit :
As noted, the data within Library Technology Guides is not offered via an open data license, but I do provide extensive data services to anyone interested without cost. I can imagine some reasons why one would not want to explicitly offer data under an open license:
- Fear that access to the data will become a financial burden (hosting/data limits). - Unwillingness to develop a method of access to the data. - Unwillingness to make a commitment to maintaining the data and/or API in the future. - Desire to reserve the right to monetize access to the data in the future.
Some of those concerns can be mitigated by cooperation.
-- Owen
* Nathan Curulla (nate@bywatersolutions.com) wrote:
Thank you Marshall,
I agree with many of the points listed in this message. Chris, what is your biggest concern other than the fact that this data is not free to download? Marshall, would you be looking for some form of compensation for us to list this on the KC website? How can we reach a middle ground here? It would be extremely unfortunate to pass up on this fantastic tool because of our inability to work together in a way that benefits both of us. Maybe this is a topic we can discuss and vote on during the next general meeting, and I would love to hear other’s opinions. My role as the Community Marketer (or whatever the role is called) is to effectively promote Koha to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, with zero budget. I see this map hitting all of those points.
Hi Nate First up, cost is not a factor paying for the data would be fine, Free is a problematic word in English, which is why I used Open license. If the data was licensed with a CC-BY-SA or similar license then we could use the data in whatever way we see fit. I think you know me well enough by now to know I am advocate for Open Source and Open Data. I sit on the advisory board for Creative Commons NZ, but I am in no way speaking for them or my employer in this matter. If the community votes to go ahead using proprietary data to market an Open Source project, then that's what will happen. However I do want my objection to this noted. It is an ethical stance, not a practical one, however if you aren't going to stand by your ethical beliefs, what is the point having them. I find it odd that there is a push to open access from a lot of libraries ... I guess walking the walk is as important to me as talking the talk. Chris -- Chris Cormack Catalyst IT Ltd. +64 4 803 2238 PO Box 11-053, Manners St, Wellington 6142, New Zealand
Thanks Chris, Just for the record, I have never taken the same absolutist approach to this as you have and have never painted myself as doing so. When I do a demo or speak to a library I always say that open is great if it works for you, but if other tools out there work better than go ahead and use them! If I told libraries that they would be ethically obligated to use open everything all the time then we wouldn’t have any customers and the community would be about 1,000 libraries fewer. There are not always open options and most of us are forced to look at things practically more so than ethically, especially when dealing with something like software. We are not talking about religion here. By your rationale anyone in the community who uses a Mac to code on Koha is a hypocrite and I don’t agree with that. So in short, Im not walking any walk that I don’t talk :) I guess I look at this project from more of a practical point of view rather than an ethical one because I don’t have the luxury to do the latter.
On Dec 20, 2016, at 5:03 PM, Chris Cormack <chrisc@catalyst.net.nz> wrote:
* Nathan Curulla (nate@bywatersolutions.com) wrote:
Thank you Marshall,
I agree with many of the points listed in this message. Chris, what is your biggest concern other than the fact that this data is not free to download? Marshall, would you be looking for some form of compensation for us to list this on the KC website? How can we reach a middle ground here? It would be extremely unfortunate to pass up on this fantastic tool because of our inability to work together in a way that benefits both of us. Maybe this is a topic we can discuss and vote on during the next general meeting, and I would love to hear other’s opinions. My role as the Community Marketer (or whatever the role is called) is to effectively promote Koha to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, with zero budget. I see this map hitting all of those points.
Hi Nate
First up, cost is not a factor paying for the data would be fine, Free is a problematic word in English, which is why I used Open license. If the data was licensed with a CC-BY-SA or similar license then we could use the data in whatever way we see fit. I think you know me well enough by now to know I am advocate for Open Source and Open Data. I sit on the advisory board for Creative Commons NZ, but I am in no way speaking for them or my employer in this matter.
If the community votes to go ahead using proprietary data to market an Open Source project, then that's what will happen. However I do want my objection to this noted. It is an ethical stance, not a practical one, however if you aren't going to stand by your ethical beliefs, what is the point having them. I find it odd that there is a push to open access from a lot of libraries ... I guess walking the walk is as important to me as talking the talk.
Chris -- Chris Cormack Catalyst IT Ltd. +64 4 803 2238 PO Box 11-053, Manners St, Wellington 6142, New Zealand
On 21 December 2016 at 11:49, Nathan Curulla <nate@bywatersolutions.com> wrote:
Thanks Chris,
Just for the record, I have never taken the same absolutist approach to this as you have and have never painted myself as doing so. When I do a demo or speak to a library I always say that open is great if it works for you, but if other tools out there work better than go ahead and use them! If I told libraries that they would be ethically obligated to use open everything all the time then we wouldn’t have any customers and the community would be about 1,000 libraries fewer. There are not always open options and most of us are forced to look at things practically more so than ethically, especially when dealing with something like software. We are not talking about religion here. By your rationale anyone in the community who uses a Mac to code on Koha is a hypocrite and I don’t agree with that. So in short, Im not walking any walk that I don’t talk :) I guess I look at this project from more of a practical point of view rather than an ethical one because I don’t have the luxury to do the latter.
HI All First of all let me apologise Nate, in no way did I mean my email to be an attack on you, or anyone, personally. If it came across that way, I can only apologise. What I meant is the project should walk the walk, individuals, libraries and individual organisations can decide for themselves, I don't presume to tell them. But I do think the project should be as open as possible. We extol (as a project .. not talking about individuals again) the virtues of Open on the koha-community.org (no vendor lock in etc). That's the talk we (as a project) talk, and that I would like us to walk. Interesting side note, there was no open option for a library system before Koha. So sometimes you do just have to build things too :) Chris
participants (6)
-
Chris Cormack -
Chris Cormack -
Francois Charbonnier -
Marshall Breeding -
Nathan Curulla -
Owen Leonard