Noticed this while poking around koha.org... http://koha.org/news/liblime-announces-liblime-enterprise-koha ------------------------------------------------------------ This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. =================================
Is Koha now officially forked? On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:26 PM, Walls, Ian wrote:
Noticed this while poking around koha.org...
http://koha.org/news/liblime-announces-liblime-enterprise-koha
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On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Erik Lewis <elewis@ngrl.org> wrote:
Is Koha now officially forked?
Hi Erik, I asked this very question in an email onlist to Joshua Ferraro, LibLime's CEO, on Aug. 4th. My email read: "Josh considers that "a split in the product" has "already happened": we have a fork, we just didn't know it. Can you confirm this?" See http://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2009-August/019685.html for the whole email and thus some context. I never got an answer, neither on list, nor off list. I guess our shared question if for Liblime to answer. Nicolas
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:26 PM, Walls, Ian wrote:
Noticed this while poking around koha.org...
http://koha.org/news/liblime-announces-liblime-enterprise-koha
------------------------------------------------------------ This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. =================================
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Nicolas Morin Mobile: +33(0)633 19 11 36 http://www.biblibre.com
I notice that it 'software as a service', thus no obligation to release the source to *anyone* ( and the reason I have been a proponent of the AGPL ). I have really been out of the loop. I've heard rumors and innuendo that Liblime has basically pulled out of the community. Is there any truth to this? Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation? I've been so wrapped up in our upgrade to 3.x, that I haven't been staying as involved as I should be. Thanks, Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Walls, Ian <Ian.Walls@med.nyu.edu> wrote:
Noticed this while poking around koha.org...
http://koha.org/news/liblime-announces-liblime-enterprise-koha
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The Koha Foundation needs to be a separate entity for just this reason. LibLime has their fingers all over everything Koha. They have promised to release all the 'stuff' to the Foundation when it is formed, but they are under no legal obligation to do so. Does anyone else have Koha 'stuff' registered in their name to be released to the proposed Foundation? The question becomes, which country does the Foundation use as home? Which country is easiest & cheapest for registration? We'll need constitution & by-laws for governance. How do we elect Board of Directors? My opinion is that officers of the Foundation should reflect the current positions of the various managers (sorry, I can't remember the proper Maori names). Also, there should be representation on the board by the various vendors as well as regional independent libraries. Honestly, the whole regional representatives feeding into the international organizations for conferences just doesn't sit well with me. In this day and age of social networks and nearly instant communication, we can all represent ourselves. Do the hackers like the current set up of using Bugzilla as feature request and is this process working to get sponsors for various bits of code? If so, why change? Less governance, not more. Lenora Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation? Lenora A. Oftedahl StreamNet Regional Librarian Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission http://www.fishlib.org
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=200905801912 From: http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/businessServices.aspx Registered Feb 26, 2009 by Jonathan Sowash of Sowash, Carson & ferrier -----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Lenora Oftedahl Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 12:26 PM To: KOHA Subject: [Koha] Koha Foundation input The Koha Foundation needs to be a separate entity for just this reason. LibLime has their fingers all over everything Koha. They have promised to release all the 'stuff' to the Foundation when it is formed, but they are under no legal obligation to do so. Does anyone else have Koha 'stuff' registered in their name to be released to the proposed Foundation? The question becomes, which country does the Foundation use as home? Which country is easiest & cheapest for registration? We'll need constitution & by-laws for governance. How do we elect Board of Directors? My opinion is that officers of the Foundation should reflect the current positions of the various managers (sorry, I can't remember the proper Maori names). Also, there should be representation on the board by the various vendors as well as regional independent libraries. Honestly, the whole regional representatives feeding into the international organizations for conferences just doesn't sit well with me. In this day and age of social networks and nearly instant communication, we can all represent ourselves. Do the hackers like the current set up of using Bugzilla as feature request and is this process working to get sponsors for various bits of code? If so, why change? Less governance, not more. Lenora Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation? Lenora A. Oftedahl StreamNet Regional Librarian Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission http://www.fishlib.org _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
I think your last question is the big one. We've done nothing but discuss the Koha Foundation for ages because we can't come to a consensus. Liblime simply started drawing up papers, which at the time seemed like it might be the best thing to do. At least they were moving forward with the foundation. I suppose if the answer is 'no, they have stopped pursuing the foundation' then we have to ask the question of where will it be formed. I believe that there is a good chance that John Brice, the Director of the Crawford County Federated Library System would be willing to help, as he has experience with this type of thing. Hopefully that will not be necessary. I hope we hear back from Liblime that everything is still on track. Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Lenora Oftedahl <OFTL@critfc.org> wrote:
The Koha Foundation needs to be a separate entity for just this reason. LibLime has their fingers all over everything Koha. They have promised to release all the 'stuff' to the Foundation when it is formed, but they are under no legal obligation to do so. Does anyone else have Koha 'stuff' registered in their name to be released to the proposed Foundation?
The question becomes, which country does the Foundation use as home? Which country is easiest & cheapest for registration? We'll need constitution & by-laws for governance.
How do we elect Board of Directors? My opinion is that officers of the Foundation should reflect the current positions of the various managers (sorry, I can't remember the proper Maori names). Also, there should be representation on the board by the various vendors as well as regional independent libraries.
Honestly, the whole regional representatives feeding into the international organizations for conferences just doesn't sit well with me. In this day and age of social networks and nearly instant communication, we can all represent ourselves.
Do the hackers like the current set up of using Bugzilla as feature request and is this process working to get sponsors for various bits of code? If so, why change?
Less governance, not more.
Lenora
Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation?
Lenora A. Oftedahl StreamNet Regional Librarian Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission http://www.fishlib.org
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
OK, although I know little about OSS, much less OSS foundations, the reference librarian in me couldn't resist ... Seems to me there's little point in re-inventing the wheel here, & to the extent that there are models available for successful and failed OSSF's, the Koha community should be taking advantage of these. Two highly relevant chapters from Steven Weber's The Success of Open Source: Chap. 6: Explaining Open Source: Macro-Organization Chap. 7: Business Models and the Law Collaboration, Leadership, Control, and Conflict Negotiation and the Netbeans.org Open Source Software Development Community By Chris Jensen, Walt Scacchi [on the NetBeans.org community] http://csdl2.computer.org/comp/proceedings/hicss/2005/2268/07/22680196b.pdf A couple of interesting CNET articles: What makes a good open-source foundation? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10159925-16.html Eclipse, a new model for open-source innovation http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-9760440-16.html An article from the online journal, Open Source Business Resource Open Source Software Foundations / Zhensheng Xie http://www.osbr.ca/ojs/index.php/osbr/article/view/738 Communities that develop open source software (OSS) are virtual entities on the Internet, not legal entities. Some open source communities establish open source software foundations (OSSF) in order to protect their intellectual property and carry out contractual arrangements. As legal entities, OSSF help communities attain their long-term goals, hold community assets, provide resources to communities, and balance interests amongst different stakeholders. When OSS started to draw more business interests, commercial companies became involved with open source communities. The emergence of OSSF provides a good platform and opportunities for companies to exert their influence in a more official way. This article summarizes our recent research regarding the relationships between company involvement, governance, revenue, and OSSF. [-- note that this article was based on the author's 2008 Master's thesis on OSS foundations: "Open source software foundation: company involvement, governance, and effectiveness" -- should be available via Proquest UMI, or directly from the author] Perhaps one or more of the following organizations/ research groups would be willing to provide pro bono consultations: Board members of existing (or perhaps failed) OSS Foundations -- many candidates here. Talent First Network (Carleton Univ.) http://www.talentfirstnetwork.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page Free/Libre Open Source Software Research (Syracuse Univ.) http://floss.syr.edu/ Big management consulting firms -- this would be a fascinating project for them: McKinsey, BCG, Bain, Booz. Or maybe a business school professor would be interested in developing a case study. Microsoft's CodePlex Foundation, launched just a few days ago, with the mission of "enabling the exchange of code and understanding among software companies and open source communities" http://codeplex.org/index.aspx Food for thought, at any rate. Cab Vinton, Director Sanbornton Public Library Sanbornton, NH
Lenora Oftedahl <OFTL@critfc.org> asked: [...]
Does anyone else have Koha 'stuff' registered in their name to be released to the proposed Foundation?
Yes, others have Koha 'stuff' registered in their names. TTLLP software.coop has some rights, but we have deliberately not registered them because I believe them to be community property stewarded by us. I have notes of some of the registrations, but I'll give the registrants chance to announce themselves first. I think some things will be released to the proposed Foundation at cost and I believe some intend to offer things for sale to the Foundation. I don't think anyone has offered to donate any stuff but I could be wrong.
The question becomes, which country does the Foundation use as home? Which country is easiest & cheapest for registration? We'll need constitution & by-laws for governance.
We need governing documents, but they may be called different things elsewhere. I know England's incorporation costs, but I don't think we're a serious candidate? Can people who know US, NZ and France add costs to http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohafoundation please?
How do we elect Board of Directors? [...]
One member one vote, either directly or grouped into constituencies?
Do the hackers like the current set up of using Bugzilla as feature request and is this process working to get sponsors for various bits of code? If so, why change?
We've had no sponsors simply from listing on Bugzilla. Anyone?
Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation?
We don't know. Hope that helps, -- MJ Ray (slef) LMS developer and webmaster at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op
Assuming the Liblime KSF is off the table, what about the idea of joining SPI or the Apache foundation? I guess the question is: who will step up and start the creation of another KSF? Who has the means and gravitas to do so? Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 10:42 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
Lenora Oftedahl <OFTL@critfc.org> asked: [...]
Does anyone else have Koha 'stuff' registered in their name to be released to the proposed Foundation?
Yes, others have Koha 'stuff' registered in their names. TTLLP software.coop has some rights, but we have deliberately not registered them because I believe them to be community property stewarded by us. I have notes of some of the registrations, but I'll give the registrants chance to announce themselves first.
I think some things will be released to the proposed Foundation at cost and I believe some intend to offer things for sale to the Foundation. I don't think anyone has offered to donate any stuff but I could be wrong.
The question becomes, which country does the Foundation use as home? Which country is easiest & cheapest for registration? We'll need constitution & by-laws for governance.
We need governing documents, but they may be called different things elsewhere. I know England's incorporation costs, but I don't think we're a serious candidate? Can people who know US, NZ and France add costs to http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohafoundation please?
How do we elect Board of Directors? [...]
One member one vote, either directly or grouped into constituencies?
Do the hackers like the current set up of using Bugzilla as feature request and is this process working to get sponsors for various bits of code? If so, why change?
We've had no sponsors simply from listing on Bugzilla. Anyone?
Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation?
We don't know.
Hope that helps, -- MJ Ray (slef) LMS developer and webmaster at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
I reread the release, and I think my first reaction wasn't quite correct. From my reading, it sounds like they will be no longer be contributing to the standard version of Koha, but instead will create a custom version, release it for Koha integration, then repeat. Is that how I should be reading the release? If so, it's seems like a far less social way to work with the community. I just hope that Liblime release a git branch with each version. Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
I notice that it 'software as a service', thus no obligation to release the source to *anyone* ( and the reason I have been a proponent of the AGPL ). I have really been out of the loop. I've heard rumors and innuendo that Liblime has basically pulled out of the community. Is there any truth to this? Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation?
I've been so wrapped up in our upgrade to 3.x, that I haven't been staying as involved as I should be.
Thanks, Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Walls, Ian <Ian.Walls@med.nyu.edu> wrote:
Noticed this while poking around koha.org...
http://koha.org/news/liblime-announces-liblime-enterprise-koha
------------------------------------------------------------ This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. =================================
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Yes, it seems to me that if the Koha community wants to benefit from the work LibLime is doing, we will need to wait until they release some code, integrate, then repeat (endlessly). Conversely, LibLime will be able to cherry-pick enhancements in Koha and fold them into their product as they go. Ian Walls Systems Integration Librarian NYU Health Sciences Libraries 550 First Ave., New York, NY 10016 (212) 263-8687 -----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Kyle Hall Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:34 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime announces LibLime Enterprise Koha I reread the release, and I think my first reaction wasn't quite correct. From my reading, it sounds like they will be no longer be contributing to the standard version of Koha, but instead will create a custom version, release it for Koha integration, then repeat. Is that how I should be reading the release? If so, it's seems like a far less social way to work with the community. I just hope that Liblime release a git branch with each version. Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
I notice that it 'software as a service', thus no obligation to release the source to *anyone* ( and the reason I have been a proponent of the AGPL ). I have really been out of the loop. I've heard rumors and innuendo that Liblime has basically pulled out of the community. Is there any truth to this? Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation?
I've been so wrapped up in our upgrade to 3.x, that I haven't been staying as involved as I should be.
Thanks, Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Walls, Ian <Ian.Walls@med.nyu.edu> wrote:
Noticed this while poking around koha.org...
http://koha.org/news/liblime-announces-liblime-enterprise-koha
------------------------------------------------------------ This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. =================================
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha ------------------------------------------------------------ This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. =================================
Can anyone explain what Liblime's "groundbreaking cloud computing platform" is? Kyle http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Walls, Ian <Ian.Walls@med.nyu.edu> wrote:
Yes, it seems to me that if the Koha community wants to benefit from the work LibLime is doing, we will need to wait until they release some code, integrate, then repeat (endlessly). Conversely, LibLime will be able to cherry-pick enhancements in Koha and fold them into their product as they go.
Ian Walls Systems Integration Librarian NYU Health Sciences Libraries 550 First Ave., New York, NY 10016 (212) 263-8687
-----Original Message----- From: koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz [mailto:koha-bounces@lists.katipo.co.nz] On Behalf Of Kyle Hall Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:34 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz Subject: Re: [Koha] LibLime announces LibLime Enterprise Koha
I reread the release, and I think my first reaction wasn't quite correct. From my reading, it sounds like they will be no longer be contributing to the standard version of Koha, but instead will create a custom version, release it for Koha integration, then repeat. Is that how I should be reading the release? If so, it's seems like a far less social way to work with the community. I just hope that Liblime release a git branch with each version.
Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> wrote:
I notice that it 'software as a service', thus no obligation to release the source to *anyone* ( and the reason I have been a proponent of the AGPL ). I have really been out of the loop. I've heard rumors and innuendo that Liblime has basically pulled out of the community. Is there any truth to this? Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation?
I've been so wrapped up in our upgrade to 3.x, that I haven't been staying as involved as I should be.
Thanks, Kyle
http://www.kylehall.info Information Technology Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Walls, Ian <Ian.Walls@med.nyu.edu> wrote:
Noticed this while poking around koha.org...
http://koha.org/news/liblime-announces-liblime-enterprise-koha
------------------------------------------------------------ This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. =================================
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
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Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>
Can anyone explain what Liblime's "groundbreaking cloud computing platform" is?
I suspect the "cloud computing platform" is Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud (EC2), but with Liblime's past use, it might be something from Google instead. I'm not sure why it's groundbreaking beyond the cloud service itself. Our co-op has been cloud-hosting Koha since 2003 (is that before most people called it the cloud?) and now our hosting supports WWF, VideoLAN, the International Federation of Human Rights, debian and more. I'm quite happy to add a Koha Foundation to that list once we have one. That's the sort of benefit a co-op will give because we're a for-service business, rather than a simple for-profit one. I think my early focuses were making the 1.2 installer support VirtualHosting and securing the SQL against the sort of attacks that are more common against hosted web apps... so it's nice to see it getting more popular, in a way. I wish it wasn't announced in a PR before the community email lists saw it, though. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) LMS developer and webmaster at | software www.software.coop http://mjr.towers.org.uk | .... co IMO only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html | .... op
From my reading, it sounds like they will be no longer be contributing to the standard version of Koha, but instead will create a custom version, release it for Koha integration, then repeat.
Exactly, and with each change to the Liblime version, and each change to the "community" version, integrating the two will become more and more difficult. This is, in effect, non-participation. This is a fork. -- Owen -- Web Developer Athens County Public Libraries http://www.myacpl.org
2009/9/12 Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>:
I notice that it 'software as a service', thus no obligation to release the source to *anyone* ( and the reason I have been a proponent of the AGPL ). I have really been out of the loop. I've heard rumors and innuendo that Liblime has basically pulled out of the community. Is there any truth to this? Is Liblime still involved in the effort to set up a foundation?
Liblime may tell you otherwise, but their actions speak louder than their words. They haven't involved themselves in the community in months, they have forked the code . No they are not active members of the community, and no, they are not involved in the effort to set up a foundation. Chris
participants (10)
-
Breeding, Marshall -
Cab Vinton -
Chris Cormack -
Erik Lewis -
Kyle Hall -
Lenora Oftedahl -
MJ Ray -
Nicolas Morin -
Owen Leonard -
Walls, Ian