Hello, how up-to-date http://hlt.katipo.co (or opac) is ? Is it 1.1.2-rc1 ? More recent version allows test driving without installation of my own Koha. Some comments about current test drive installation: 1. Opac advanced search there are subject search (Dewey) and class search (CD roms ... young adult). However, on results page these seems to become Item type e.g. Adult Non-fiction (does not match class search ?) Class Dewey number This seems to be an inconstancy in naming. Confusing. search page results page Subject --> Class Class --> Item type (?) 2. relating to previous comment there is "subject" displayed in results page but the "subject" on search page is for dewey! Oops, just tested, you can use "subject search" for both dewey or subject headings (?) Dewey seems to be used for classification and for location, which is confusing. Why not change search results to something like this: [The atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth (Fonstad, Karen Wynn)] BIBLIO RECORD Subject: | MIDDLE EARTH (IMAGINARY PLACE) Item Type Class Branch Adult Non-fiction 398.234 Foxton ----- BIBLIO RECORD Subject: | MIDDLE EARTH (IMAGINARY PLACE) Dewey: 398.234 Item Type Location Adult Non-fiction Foxton 398.234 3. There is something funny in database: "Watt, Be" appears on mosts subjects in result page. Also results with only biblio record, rest is missing. 4. Intranet search results display Class hyperlinked but opac does not. I think that hyperlinking also opacs search results Class can offer additional convinient access point to opac users. Same goes for Subject. 5. Minor usability thingy: on opac home page there is "Search the catalogue", search box and "advanced search". So I typed in my search word and clicked "Search the catalogue" - and ended up in advanced search page. And there is button to start search... (sorry for my terrible English) Ville
I forgot one more comment: "reading record" (reading history) raises some privacy issues. This should be configurable option when setting up Koha database. Ville
Hi Ville I answer your short post first because, well its short :) On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:52:38PM +0300, Ville Huhtala said:
I forgot one more comment:
"reading record" (reading history) raises some privacy issues. This should be configurable option when setting up Koha database.
Im not sure I understand, you dont think the librarians should be able to pull up a reading history on a borrower? I agree you shouldnt make this information available to the other borrowers. But surely if the information is all in the database the librarians should be allowed to see it? The reading record is just a list of all the itmes a borrower has borrowed. And can be fetched in multiple ways. Do you think there would be situations in which you'd want to hide a members borrowing history from a librarian? In which case you'd probably want to hide a lot of other information as well. Is this what you were thinking? Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 025 500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz
Here in the USA we are concerned that keeping this kind of information about patrons' reading habits might be subject to examination by outsiders as the result of a court order. If we don't keep it we can't reveal it. At the same time we wish our current system permitted it as a user option. For example I would love to have a list of what I've read and I am unconcerned about a court looking at the list. Another patron may not feel that way. Ed Haskell Rochester Public Library Board of Trustees On Thursday 02 May 2002 22:59, you wrote:
Hi Ville
I answer your short post first because, well its short :)
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:52:38PM +0300, Ville Huhtala said:
I forgot one more comment:
"reading record" (reading history) raises some privacy issues. This should be configurable option when setting up Koha database.
Im not sure I understand, you dont think the librarians should be able to pull up a reading history on a borrower?
I agree you shouldnt make this information available to the other borrowers. But surely if the information is all in the database the librarians should be allowed to see it?
The reading record is just a list of all the itmes a borrower has borrowed. And can be fetched in multiple ways.
Do you think there would be situations in which you'd want to hide a members borrowing history from a librarian? In which case you'd probably want to hide a lot of other information as well. Is this what you were thinking?
Chris
Hi Ed On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 11:41:22PM -0500, Ed Haskell said:
Here in the USA we are concerned that keeping this kind of information about patrons' reading habits might be subject to examination by outsiders as the result of a court order. If we don't keep it we can't reveal it.
A valid point, but the point i was attempting to make is we keep it whether we make it displayable from a link in the librarians interface. Or whether we dont. The only way to not keep it, would be to delete an issue record when an item is returned. Which would involve a big drop in functionality in koha. IE you couldnt run any kind of reports over what items where issues where in a give date period, or how many items where issued in branch such and such in the last month say. It could certainly be done, but youd have to make sure you had mysql logging turned off as well, else you could retrieve all the data from there anyway. Making the reading record not easily accessible could be done as a configuration option easily. Making it completely unaccessible would involve a fairly major rewrite. I hope this makes sense (its friday afternoon my brain isnt running at optimum capacity :) )
At the same time we wish our current system permitted it as a user option. For example I would love to have a list of what I've read and I am unconcerned about a court looking at the list. Another patron may not feel that way.
So only keep issues data for certain people? This also could be done, but would involve a lot of work. However only presenting the data to certain users would be an easy option. And in fact is something HLT would like as well. Chris
On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 05:00:04PM +1200, Chris Cormack wrote:
The only way to not keep it, would be to delete an issue record when an item is returned. Which would involve a big drop in functionality in koha. IE you couldnt run any kind of reports over what items where issues where in a give date period, or how many items where issued in branch such and such in the last month say..
You could remove the information about which patron it had been issued to for the given period (once the item was returned), while retaining the rest of the "issued" record. Perhaps by overwriting the patron id in the record with the id of an "anonymous" patron record. -emile
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 10:38:02PM -0700, Emile Snyder said:
On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 05:00:04PM +1200, Chris Cormack wrote:
The only way to not keep it, would be to delete an issue record when an item is returned. Which would involve a big drop in functionality in koha. IE you couldnt run any kind of reports over what items where issues where in a give date period, or how many items where issued in branch such and such in the last month say..
You could remove the information about which patron it had been issued to for the given period (once the item was returned), while retaining the rest of the "issued" record. Perhaps by overwriting the patron id in the record with the id of an "anonymous" patron record.
Good idea :) Then of course you couldnt see if it was more popular with children or adults, or more often borrowed by institions or normal borrowers etc. But this might be a small price to pay if there is danger of you being forced to reveal the data. I remember just recently actually a bookstore somewhere in the US refused to reveal a patrons purchase record. Cant recall specifics but it was on slashdot.org. So I can see how its a legitimate concern that someone may demand it. That might be a good configuration option. Anonymise issue records (course youd have to wait till the item is returned *grin*) Interesting discussion, and one i must admit I hadnt even considered. Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 025 500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz
But this might be a small price to pay if there is danger of you being forced to reveal the data. I remember just recently actually a bookstore somewhere in the US refused to reveal a patrons purchase record. Cant recall specifics but it was on slashdot.org. So I can see how its a legitimate concern that someone may demand it.
Monica Lewinsky is the ... incident ... you are thinking of. It is also a concern item for our European users, I'd think -- their privacy rules are significantly stricter. Perhaps we could go a middle ground? Instead of a perfectly anonymous code, we could tag it with a patron code that is marked as a "demographic" code (ie first digit is a patron type: local/external, next is age "bracket", etc)? That is usually generally acceptable, as marketing firms keep that kind of data.
That might be a good configuration option. Anonymise issue records (course youd have to wait till the item is returned *grin*)
I'm not a lawyer, but this is _definitely_ a potentially touchy item. My rule of thumb is always to avoid keeping data on a person unless they are a.) aware it exists and b.) have an opt out option. If I'm not mistaken, the privacy of a library user is something that is _heavily_ encouraged by groups like the Amer. Library Assoc. (which has a code of ethics for librarians). I'll put it in the roadmap. Nick
Monica Lewinsky is the ... incident ... you are thinking of. It is also a concern item for our European users, I'd think -- their privacy rules are significantly stricter. Perhaps we could go a middle ground? Instead of a perfectly anonymous code, we could tag it with a patron code that is marked as a "demographic" code (ie first digit is a patron type: local/external, next is age "bracket", etc)? That is usually generally acceptable, as marketing firms keep that kind of data.
Yep
That might be a good configuration option. Anonymise issue records (course youd have to wait till the item is returned *grin*)
I'm not a lawyer, but this is _definitely_ a potentially touchy item. My rule of thumb is always to avoid keeping data on a person unless they are a.) aware it exists and b.) have an opt out option.
Well you have to keep the info until you return the item, Else how do you know who has the item out?
If I'm not mistaken, the privacy of a library user is something that is _heavily_ encouraged by groups like the Amer. Library Assoc. (which has a code of ethics for librarians). I'll put it in the roadmap.
Sure, there are ways around it. But at any given time you will know all the items a person has out. Theres no way we can anonymise that. But we can certainly allow for an option for anonymising historical data. What I think the HLT use the data for, for their purposes is often they supply books to rest homes. Or elderly borrowers, and theyd like to avoid giving them the same book twice. Im fairly sure they'd like to keep doing this, and that the borrowers are aware the librarians know what books they have borrowed. So if we make it an optional setting, i wonder if thats enuff to satisfy the law enforcement. Being paranoid here, if you have a setting is it conceivable they could get a court order to force you to not anonymise the data? Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 025 500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz
Hi All Ive actually just remembered a reason for keeping some historical issues data. Apart from the statisctics, and reading records reason. Just that if you anonymise the record at return, you have lost track of the last person who had the item. So say someone borrows a cdrom, returns it, later its discovered there is a great big scratch on it. We now have no idea who last borrowed it. Or a book has pages missing etc. Or even worse someone returns a dvd case without the dvd in it, the data is anonymised, now someone has a free dvd. Having said this, I have absolutely no aversion to anonymising the data. It certainly appears that it will need to be done for places where there is fear of litigation or court orders forcing you to reveal that data. I just want to make sure we dont lose big chunks of functionality in doing so. In talking things over with people. Perhaps having a last borrower record attached to each item then demographically anonymising the issues data on return might be the way to go? Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 025 500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz
Having said this, I have absolutely no aversion to anonymising the data. It certainly appears that it will need to be done for places where there is fear of litigation or court orders forcing you to reveal that data. I just want to make sure we dont lose big chunks of functionality in doing so. Cool. Thanks -- I know it is an ethics area for ALA members, and possibly a legal one for Euro, etc librarians.
In talking things over with people. Perhaps having a last borrower record attached to each item then demographically anonymising the issues data on return might be the way to go? Sounds cool to me. Another reason to do it is for weed out candidate lists (you know, what isn't being used at all).
Or even worse someone returns a dvd case without the dvd in it, the data is anonymised, now someone has a free dvd. Perhaps. Don't we have (or shouldn't we have?) a function that returns permits "who has this now" checks on a barcode. Most library circulation staff (with perishable items :) like DVDs, etc) open the box/case before running it through the return function -- a "who has" would let them check w/out removing the item.
On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 05:42:23PM -0400, Nicholas Rosasco said:
Or even worse someone returns a dvd case without the dvd in it, the data is anonymised, now someone has a free dvd. Perhaps. Don't we have (or shouldn't we have?) a function that returns permits "who has this now" checks on a barcode. Most library circulation staff (with perishable items :) like DVDs, etc) open the box/case before running it through the return function -- a "who has" would let them check w/out removing the item.
Yep we can certainly find out who has an item now. And presently we can find out who last had the item. I dont want to lose that function. Damage to a book may be found after it has been returned (librarians dont really have time to check every item as its returned for damage, so they may miss one) Hope this makes sense. And thanks everyone for your contributions to this discussion its really helped me understand the issue a lot better. Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 025 500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz
The issue with USA libraries, I would think, will revolve around keeping a history of the patrons' borrowings. Retaining info on who had the material last for, say, 48 hours to allow for discovering damage, etc., doesn't seem to me to be a problem. This could be easily implemented using the techniques discussed in this thread by simply adjusting the timing of the anonymize function. On a separate part of this thread: the possibility that a court could order a library to turn the history function on for a user or users--- that problem exists now for all automation systems. The fact that it is impossible or impractical for most of them would not in any way dissuade a US court from issuing an order that usage must be tracked. The thing most US librarians are concerned about is the possibility of being ordered to turn over information that has already been collected without a patron's knowledge. I think the techniques we are discussing here allow for handling that concern. Ed Haskell Rochester Public Library Board of Trustees On Friday 03 May 2002 16:50, Chris Cormack wrote:
On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 05:42:23PM -0400, Nicholas Rosasco said:
Or even worse someone returns a dvd case without the dvd in it, the data is anonymised, now someone has a free dvd.
Perhaps. Don't we have (or shouldn't we have?) a function that returns permits "who has this now" checks on a barcode. Most library circulation staff (with perishable items :) like DVDs, etc) open the box/case before running it through the return function -- a "who has" would let them check w/out removing the item.
Yep we can certainly find out who has an item now. And presently we can find out who last had the item. I dont want to lose that function. Damage to a book may be found after it has been returned (librarians dont really have time to check every item as its returned for damage, so they may miss one)
Hope this makes sense.
And thanks everyone for your contributions to this discussion its really helped me understand the issue a lot better.
Chris
On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 11:18:29AM -0400, Nicholas Rosasco wrote:
But this might be a small price to pay if there is danger of you being forced to reveal the data. I remember just recently actually a bookstore somewhere in the US refused to reveal a patrons purchase record.. Cant recall specifics but it was on slashdot.org. So I can see how its a legitimate concern that someone may demand it..
Monica Lewinsky is the ... incident ... you are thinking of. It is also a
I might be getting way off topic here, but a more recent slashdot story is http://slashdot.org/articles/02/04/08/1652203.shtml?tid=123 and involves the bookstore "Tattered Cover" in Colorado where police got an overly broad search warrent for the purchasing records of a suspect in a drug case. The Colorado supreme court recently overturned an appelate court decision, finding in favor of the bookstore. The decision was an interesting and heartening read. One of the comments on /. linked to a more disturbing piece http://editorandpublisher.com/editorandpublisher/headlines/article_display.j... that points out that the newly passed USA Patriot Act gives the FBI the power to sieze records of books bought or borrowed under the authority of a secret court (the Foureign Intelligence Surveillance Court) and further makes it a crime for the institution in question to reveal that the records were taken. -emile
Hello everyone, Sorry to be late responding to the email thread about user comments, but I would like to add one further thought - our borrowers love the facility of being able to look back over their reading lists. "I read a book a few months ago. It was about... but I can't remember the title/author. Do you know what it was?" And with the reading lists we have a much better chance of identifying the not- quite-forgotten title. At the moment, they have to invoke a staff member to show them their list, but in the near future, I'm planning to let them have access (passworded) to their own records. I'm expecting a round of appreciation when more poeple realise this is available. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Rosalie Blake Horowhenua Library Trust On 3 May 2002, at 17:48, Chris Cormack wrote:
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 10:38:02PM -0700, Emile Snyder said:
On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 05:00:04PM +1200, Chris Cormack wrote:
The only way to not keep it, would be to delete an issue record when an item is returned. Which would involve a big drop in functionality in koha. IE you couldnt run any kind of reports over what items where issues where in a give date period, or how many items where issued in branch such and such in the last month say..
You could remove the information about which patron it had been issued to for the given period (once the item was returned), while retaining the rest of the "issued" record. Perhaps by overwriting the patron id in the record with the id of an "anonymous" patron record.
Good idea :)
Then of course you couldnt see if it was more popular with children or adults, or more often borrowed by institions or normal borrowers etc.
But this might be a small price to pay if there is danger of you being forced to reveal the data. I remember just recently actually a bookstore somewhere in the US refused to reveal a patrons purchase record. Cant recall specifics but it was on slashdot.org. So I can see how its a legitimate concern that someone may demand it.
That might be a good configuration option. Anonymise issue records (course youd have to wait till the item is returned *grin*)
Interesting discussion, and one i must admit I hadnt even considered.
Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 025 500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
I think the varying reactions to this thread show us that we're going to need to be very careful to build any functionality in a very configurable way. I think we're going to see three tiers of services for reading lists; completely anonimized, demographically anonymized, and non-anonymized. For other kinds of functionality we're going to see similar division (e.g., tracking ethnicity). If we do things right, I think everyone can be kept (or made) happy. -pate On Wed, 8 May 2002, Rosalie Blake wrote:
Hello everyone, Sorry to be late responding to the email thread about user comments, but I would like to add one further thought - our borrowers love the facility of being able to look back over their reading lists. "I read a book a few months ago. It was about... but I can't remember the title/author. Do you know what it was?" And with the reading lists we have a much better chance of identifying the not- quite-forgotten title. At the moment, they have to invoke a staff member to show them their list, but in the near future, I'm planning to let them have access (passworded) to their own records. I'm expecting a round of appreciation when more poeple realise this is available. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Rosalie Blake Horowhenua Library Trust
I think the varying reactions to this thread show us that we're going to need to be very careful to build any functionality in a very configurable way.
On that same thought -- and on the flip side of my (earlier) privacy concerns, I admit -- academic librarians would probably appreciate the feature, as their researchers as a rule want to know everything they have looked at when they go to write about things. If we accomodate both viewpoints, we won't be able to do the coding easy-way-out, but it will result in a much more powerful application. Nick
Hi all, I'm fairly new to the list and this is a question I can answer! :) I'm a librarian in a public library in the United States (I'm trying to talk them into using Koha). The reason the library I work at does not keep a reading history is because of the history libraries have had with law enforcement here. If we kept records then law enforcement could demand them and our policy here is not to give out *any* information on what a person reads or does in the library. Since the terror attacks, some libraries have been asked for reading histories on suspected terrorists and as far as I've heard no library questioned has kept them. It really has nothing to do with librarians looking at what patrons are reading. We do have voluntary reading histories on homebound patrons, so that we don't take them books they've already read, but they agreed to allow that. Hope this helps! Carla Otis Library, Norwich, CT
Im not sure I understand, you dont think the librarians should be able to pull up a reading history on a borrower?
I agree you shouldnt make this information available to the other borrowers. But surely if the information is all in the database the librarians should be allowed to see it?
The reading record is just a list of all the itmes a borrower has borrowed. And can be fetched in multiple ways.
Do you think there would be situations in which you'd want to hide a members borrowing history from a librarian? In which case you'd probably want to hide a lot of other information as well. Is this what you were thinking?
Chris
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 08:08:27PM +0300, Ville Huhtala said:
Hello,
how up-to-date http://hlt.katipo.co (or opac) is ? Is it 1.1.2-rc1 ? More recent version allows test driving without installation of my own Koha.
Its probably slightly newer than 1.1.2-rc1 .. which isnt actually ready for public release at all yet. (its getting closr tho) Its also where i do some testing at times, so is not always the most stable. But it is a good place to play around to get a feeling for koha.
Some comments about current test drive installation:
1. Opac advanced search there are subject search (Dewey) and class search (CD roms ... young adult). However, on results page these seems to become Item type e.g. Adult Non-fiction (does not match class search ?) Class Dewey number
This seems to be an inconstancy in naming. Confusing. search page results page Subject --> Class Class --> Item type (?)
Yep thats a fair comment, we are doing some work on the search results page at the moment actually. Ill try to make sure we fix the inconsistencies as we go.
2. relating to previous comment there is "subject" displayed in results page but the "subject" on search page is for dewey! Oops, just tested, you can use "subject search" for both dewey or subject headings (?) Dewey seems to be used for classification and for location, which is confusing. Why not change search results to something like this:
[The atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth (Fonstad, Karen Wynn)]
BIBLIO RECORD Subject: | MIDDLE EARTH (IMAGINARY PLACE) Item Type Class Branch Adult Non-fiction 398.234 Foxton ----- BIBLIO RECORD Subject: | MIDDLE EARTH (IMAGINARY PLACE) Dewey: 398.234 Item Type Location Adult Non-fiction Foxton 398.234
Hmm i like it, ill see what the librarians on the list have to say :)
3. There is something funny in database: "Watt, Be" appears on mosts subjects in result page. Also results with only biblio record, rest is missing.
Yep, the test database has quite a bit of weirdness in it now. (Comes from 2 years of ppl playing with it :-)) It might be time to tidy it all up
4. Intranet search results display Class hyperlinked but opac does not. I think that hyperlinking also opacs search results Class can offer additional convinient access point to opac users. Same goes for Subject.
Yep, we were trialing the links in the intranet, i think there would be no arguments in enlivening them in the opac as well.
5. Minor usability thingy: on opac home page there is "Search the catalogue", search box and "advanced search". So I typed in my search word and clicked "Search the catalogue" - and ended up in advanced search page. And there is button to start search...
Ah yes, ill leave this one for the designers.
(sorry for my terrible English)
Its fine, a lot better than my Fijian :) Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 025 500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz
participants (8)
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carla -
Chris Cormack -
Ed Haskell -
Emile Snyder -
Nicholas Rosasco -
Pat Eyler -
Rosalie Blake -
Ville Huhtala