Hello, Our School District is interested in at least taking a look at KOHA, but we can't seem to find a pay vendor that would support it. I called liblime.com today and was unceremoniously told that we are "too small" a School District for them to support. Now we have 2700 students and 4 -15,000 Circulation Libraries and are looking to possibly switch from "Follett" Winnebago to another platform. Looking for Guidance, Matthew Ballou Director of Computer Technology New Hampshire, USA
Hi Matthew, On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Ballou, Matthew <MBallou@sau40.com> wrote:
Hello,
Our School District is interested in at least taking a look at KOHA, but we can't seem to find a pay vendor that would support it. I called liblime.com today and was unceremoniously told that we are "too small" a School District for them to support. Now we have 2700 students and 4 -15,000 Circulation Libraries and are looking to possibly switch from "Follett" Winnebago to another platform.
Just to clarify, it was me you spoke with, and I don't recall saying that you were 'too small'; but rather, that I wasn't sure you could afford our services. I gave you our standard rates, it's up to you to decide if you can afford them; our business must be sustainable for the sake of our employees, customers and the Koha community; we work very hard and many of our staff spend many waking hours volunteering on this project as I'm sure many on this list will attest to. If you're interested in a list of alternative support resources for Koha, you can find such a list here: http://koha.org/support/pay.html Of course, you can also download and install Koha for yourself, or have a local consultant help you. Hope that's helpful. Sincerely, -- Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE CEO migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Joshua Ferraro a écrit :
Hi Matthew, Of course, you can also download and install Koha for yourself, or have a local consultant help you.
Just to second what joshua says : "free software" means "free as speech, not free as beer". You are free to to install Koha on your own, your are free to find someone that fit your purse, your are free to choose an other ILS. I (really) don't know what are LibLime rates, nor how small is your purse. But when we spend time for a customer, this time has to be paid. That's, on this side of the Atlantic, what we try to convince our customers. I don't speak of our "community involvement", which is huge, and is done because we are free software addicts, as well as because we think sharing our work will give us more than keeping it just for us. I just speak of the time we spend for a given customer, at his request. HTH -- Paul POULAIN http://www.biblibre.com Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc Tel : 04 91 31 45 19
I want to comment here that Schools may be small and no matter what you migrate to there will be a fairly large migration cost. That is typical of all migrations. What I see is that software maintanance though may be a LOT less in the long run over some of the competitors. That's just my opinion and I believe as people look around and start comparing apples to apples KOHA and LibLime might not be so out of the ball park. David Schuster Paul POULAIN-2 wrote:
Joshua Ferraro a écrit :
Hi Matthew, Of course, you can also download and install Koha for yourself, or have a local consultant help you.
Just to second what joshua says : "free software" means "free as speech, not free as beer". You are free to to install Koha on your own, your are free to find someone that fit your purse, your are free to choose an other ILS. I (really) don't know what are LibLime rates, nor how small is your purse.
But when we spend time for a customer, this time has to be paid. That's, on this side of the Atlantic, what we try to convince our customers.
I don't speak of our "community involvement", which is huge, and is done because we are free software addicts, as well as because we think sharing our work will give us more than keeping it just for us. I just speak of the time we spend for a given customer, at his request.
HTH
-- Paul POULAIN http://www.biblibre.com Expert en Logiciels Libres pour l'info-doc Tel : 04 91 31 45 19 _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Vendor-Question-tp16567562p16656689.html Sent from the Koha - Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Dear Matthew, We'll be delighted to provide you with Koha support. I am attaching our capabilities statement and contact information. Please let me know how we may assist you. I am looking forward to hearing from you. elizabeth ziph, ceo THE LINUX BOX CORPORATION /ISO 9001:2000 certified The trusted open source software services company/ 206 S. 5th Avenue, Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 www.linuxbox.com Toll Free: (877) 546-8929 Telephone: (734) 761-4689 Facsimile: (734) 769-8938 elizabeth@linuxbox.com Ballou, Matthew wrote:
Hello,
Our School District is interested in at least taking a look at KOHA, but we can’t seem to find a pay vendor that would support it. I called liblime.com today and was unceremoniously told that we are “too small” a School District for them to support. Now we have 2700 students and 4 -15,000 Circulation Libraries and are looking to possibly switch from “Follett” Winnebago to another platform.
Looking for Guidance,
Matthew Ballou Director of Computer Technology New Hampshire, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Welcome back Elizabeth! On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 2:33 PM, elizabeth <elizabeth@linuxbox.com> wrote:
Dear Matthew,
We'll be delighted to provide you with Koha support. I am attaching our capabilities statement and contact information.
Please let me know how we may assist you.
I am looking forward to hearing from you.
elizabeth ziph, ceo THE LINUX BOX CORPORATION ISO 9001:2000 certified The trusted open source software services company 206 S. 5th Avenue, Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104
We seem to have lost your info on koha.org/support/pay.html. Would you like someone to add that back? Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE CEO migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
elizabeth <elizabeth@linuxbox.com> wrote:
We'll be delighted to provide you with Koha support. I am attaching our capabilities statement and contact information.
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list? [1] - well, the viewer says:- **** This file had errors that were repaired or ignored. **** The file was produced by: **** >>>> Adobe PDF library 8.00 <<<< **** Please notify the author of the software that produced this **** file that it does not conform to Adobe's published PDF **** specification. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237
Dear MJ Ray, Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. No one has mentioned this Adobe message to me before. We are always focused on continuous improvement. We'll check into the root cause of the problem and be sure to we fix it as soon as possible. I am sorry to have inconvenienced you. elizabeth ziph, ceo THE LINUX BOX CORPORATION /ISO 9001:2000 certified The trusted open source software services company/ 206 S. 5th Avenue, Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 www.linuxbox.com Toll Free: (877) 546-8929 Telephone: (734) 761-4689 Facsimile: (734) 769-8938 elizabeth@linuxbox.com MJ Ray wrote:
elizabeth <elizabeth@linuxbox.com> wrote:
We'll be delighted to provide you with Koha support. I am attaching our capabilities statement and contact information.
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list?
[1] - well, the viewer says:- **** This file had errors that were repaired or ignored. **** The file was produced by: **** >>>> Adobe PDF library 8.00 <<<< **** Please notify the author of the software that produced this **** file that it does not conform to Adobe's published PDF **** specification.
Regards,
I wouldn't dismiss them as untrustworthy. I had no trouble whatsoever with either PDF file. -- John Springer, MLS Information Technology Manager Geauga County Public Library (440) 286-6811 x124 On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:51 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
elizabeth <elizabeth@linuxbox.com> wrote:
We'll be delighted to provide you with Koha support. I am attaching our capabilities statement and contact information.
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list?
[1] - well, the viewer says:- **** This file had errors that were repaired or ignored. **** The file was produced by: **** >>>> Adobe PDF library 8.00 <<<< **** Please notify the author of the software that produced this **** file that it does not conform to Adobe's published PDF **** specification.
Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
"John Springer" <john.springer@geaugalibrary.info> wrote:
I wouldn't dismiss them as untrustworthy. I had no trouble whatsoever with either PDF file.
Who mentioned trustworthiness? Not I! I asked:
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list?
I expect they're perfectly trustworthy, but I'm questioning their support for free and open source software (like Koha) and their competence with email: they appear to be using Adobe PDF (which isn't free software and I remember Sklyarov); and when someone attaches a binary file to an email, it expands by about 30% and when that goes to a mailing list, it's sending an unrequested binary file plus that extra 30% to potentially hundreds subscribers. Borders on spam. It's hopefully just a little accident, but it seemed worth questioning just in case... I'm tired of good hardworking free software firms being overlooked in favour of aggressive self-promoters because prospective customers don't notice that mailbombing lists with binary files produced with non-free software is a bit bloody strange. Sorry for highlighting that it's strange. Hope that clarifies, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237
Dear MJ Ray, Please accept my apology for my incorrect inference that you were questioning their trustworthiness, and my thanks for clarifying that you were questioning their support for free and open source software, their competence with email.
I expect they're perfectly trustworthy, but I'm questioning their support for free and open source software (like Koha) and their competence with email
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list?
I might. Sending 1Mb of unbroken PDFs to a mailing list would not be cause enough for me to exclude them from consideration as a support vendor. Thanks. -- John Springer, MLS Information Technology Manager Geauga County Public Library (440) 286-6811 x124
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:51 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
elizabeth <elizabeth@linuxbox.com> wrote:
We'll be delighted to provide you with Koha support. I am attaching our capabilities statement and contact information.
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list? Let's agree to avoid this kind of hostile tone on-list, it's no way to have a discussion. Whether or not the Linux Box folks can create a PDF has nothing to do with whether they can help me with my Koha system. I didn't personally have trouble reading the documents, and I'm sure if you point out the issues you had without insinuating anything you'd get a lot further toward your goal. Let's keep things constructive please!
Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE CEO migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
"Joshua Ferraro" <jmf@liblime.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:51 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list? Let's agree to avoid this kind of hostile tone on-list, it's no way to have a discussion.
So if someone emails me and dozens (hundreds?) of others a large unsolicited binary file, we shouldn't challenge that in public in pretty strong terms? That seems nuts.
Whether or not the Linux Box folks can create a PDF has nothing to do with whether they can help me with my Koha system.
Perhaps, but I feel *how* they created the PDF (using non-free software to make an apparently non-standard file) and what they did with it (emailing it unsolicited to the list) might tell you something about how they would approach Koha support. LibLime might not care about keeping this user in the free software world, but I do! If someone wants on-site support, then it's going to limit the options, but I suspect BibLibre and Calyx as well as TTLLP are happy to accept international enquiries with remote support in general, so it puts my nose out a bit when a company not seen here recently uses someone not liking LibLime's prices as an excuse to mailbomb the list. Limes are not the only fruit. Or would you rather LinuxBox had work instead of koha-devel members for some reason? Puzzled, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:25 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
"Joshua Ferraro" <jmf@liblime.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:51 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list? Let's agree to avoid this kind of hostile tone on-list, it's no way to have a discussion.
So if someone emails me and dozens (hundreds?) of others a large unsolicited binary file, we shouldn't challenge that in public in pretty strong terms? That seems nuts. Well, we can certainly take a vote on-list, I personally found your response much more offensive than the PDF file.
Whether or not the Linux Box folks can create a PDF has nothing to do with whether they can help me with my Koha system.
Perhaps, but I feel *how* they created the PDF (using non-free software to make an apparently non-standard file) and what they did with it (emailing it unsolicited to the list) might tell you something about how they would approach Koha support. LibLime might not care about keeping this user in the free software world, but I do!
If someone wants on-site support, then it's going to limit the options, but I suspect BibLibre and Calyx as well as TTLLP are happy to accept international enquiries with remote support in general, so it puts my nose out a bit when a company not seen here recently uses someone not liking LibLime's prices as an excuse to mailbomb the list. Limes are not the only fruit. I couldn't agree more, which is why you've never seen the koha lists used as a marketing tool for LibLime. We always point folks to http://koha.org/support/pay.html if they are looking for commercial support on-list.
Or would you rather LinuxBox had work instead of koha-devel members for some reason? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LinuxBox has contributed to Koha in the past ... feel free to correct me if I"m wrong. In any case, I'm happy to see the available support options expand, I hope we have an environment in this community that fosters multiple support channels. Sending hostile emails on-list doesn't do that.
Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE CEO migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
"Joshua Ferraro" <jmf@liblime.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:25 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
So if someone emails me and dozens (hundreds?) of others a large unsolicited binary file, we shouldn't challenge that in public in pretty strong terms? That seems nuts. Well, we can certainly take a vote on-list, I personally found your response much more offensive than the PDF file.
Wow. Maybe it didn't translate to en_US or something. I really don't see how it's offensive to question whether sending proprietary binary files to our list is appropriate behaviour.
Or would you rather LinuxBox had work instead of koha-devel members for some reason? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LinuxBox has contributed to Koha in the past ... feel free to correct me if I"m wrong. [...]
How about checking one's own facts before posting? I can find LinuxBox getting a public welcome in a Koha newsletter late 2005, in a way I don't think BibLibre or TTLLP ever have, but not much else. According to the revision log, they've never been listed on www.koha.org/support/pay.html Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237
MJ Ray wrote:
Wow. Maybe it didn't translate to en_US or something. I really don't see how it's offensive to question whether sending proprietary binary files to our list is appropriate behaviour.
It isn't. And it isn't. Sad thing is, a little something called netiquette is not being taught, absorbed or practiced much anymore. I'm on a lot of discussion lists. Most of them do not allow any attachments at all, for very good reasons. If one does not understand the reasons, one should educate oneself before joining the list. It's called cultural awareness. Heck, some lists I'm on don't even allow HTML emails. Good thing, too. As for what sparked this divergence in the first place, I believe it was a bit of personal corporate promotion. That is not appropriate on a list such as this, IMHO. If one wishes to promote oneself, do it offlist. Onlist one might be thought of as spamming. cheers rickw -- ________________________________________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services || Internet Driving Instructor The best way to accelerate a PC is 9.8 m/s2 -- anon
Dear All, We apologize for the faux pas of attaching the pdf's to the list. We don't have a history of aggressively self-promoting on the lists, so we're sorry to do so now. Also, to your other points, we use nothing but free software in the business. Our graphics person, who made the PDFs, is free-lance, and happens to use nothing but Apple and Adobe software. To us, it's all about choice, and where we can, we don't impose our preferences on creative or technical people. I don't think we have anything to apologize for as regards being hard-working or reputable contributors to the free software community, but it would be inappropriate to belabor this. Thanks, and again, we apologize for advertising to the list. elizabeth ziph, ceo THE LINUX BOX CORPORATION ISO 9001:2000 certified The trusted open source software services company 206 S. 5th Avenue, Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 www.linuxbox.com Toll Free: (877) 546-8929 Telephone: (734) 761-4689 Facsimile: (734) 769-8938 elizabeth@linuxbox.com MJ Ray wrote:
"Joshua Ferraro" <jmf@liblime.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:25 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
So if someone emails me and dozens (hundreds?) of others a large unsolicited binary file, we shouldn't challenge that in public in pretty strong terms? That seems nuts.
Well, we can certainly take a vote on-list, I personally found your response much more offensive than the PDF file.
Wow. Maybe it didn't translate to en_US or something. I really don't see how it's offensive to question whether sending proprietary binary files to our list is appropriate behaviour.
Or would you rather LinuxBox had work instead of koha-devel members for some reason?
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LinuxBox has contributed to Koha in the past ... feel free to correct me if I"m wrong. [...]
How about checking one's own facts before posting? I can find LinuxBox getting a public welcome in a Koha newsletter late 2005, in a way I don't think BibLibre or TTLLP ever have, but not much else. According to the revision log, they've never been listed on www.koha.org/support/pay.html
Regards,
Thank you, Joshua! On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 06:49 -0400, Joshua Ferraro wrote:
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:25 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
"Joshua Ferraro" <jmf@liblime.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:51 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
Would you sign up with a vendor who sends 1Mb of broken[1] PDFs to a mailing list? Let's agree to avoid this kind of hostile tone on-list, it's no way to have a discussion.
So if someone emails me and dozens (hundreds?) of others a large unsolicited binary file, we shouldn't challenge that in public in pretty strong terms? That seems nuts. Well, we can certainly take a vote on-list, I personally found your response much more offensive than the PDF file.
Whether or not the Linux Box folks can create a PDF has nothing to do with whether they can help me with my Koha system.
Perhaps, but I feel *how* they created the PDF (using non-free software to make an apparently non-standard file) and what they did with it (emailing it unsolicited to the list) might tell you something about how they would approach Koha support. LibLime might not care about keeping this user in the free software world, but I do!
If someone wants on-site support, then it's going to limit the options, but I suspect BibLibre and Calyx as well as TTLLP are happy to accept international enquiries with remote support in general, so it puts my nose out a bit when a company not seen here recently uses someone not liking LibLime's prices as an excuse to mailbomb the list. Limes are not the only fruit. I couldn't agree more, which is why you've never seen the koha lists used as a marketing tool for LibLime. We always point folks to http://koha.org/support/pay.html if they are looking for commercial support on-list.
Or would you rather LinuxBox had work instead of koha-devel members for some reason? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LinuxBox has contributed to Koha in the past ... feel free to correct me if I"m wrong. In any case, I'm happy to see the available support options expand, I hope we have an environment in this community that fosters multiple support channels. Sending hostile emails on-list doesn't do that.
Cheers,
-- Matt Burkhardt, MSTM President Impari Systems, Inc. Phone: (301) 644-3911 mlb@imparisystems.com http://www.imparisystems.com
Hi
If someone wants on-site support, then it's going to limit the options, but I suspect BibLibre and Calyx as well as TTLLP are happy to accept international enquiries with remote support in general, so it puts my nose out a bit when a company not seen here recently uses someone not liking LibLime's prices as an excuse to mailbomb the list. Limes are not the only fruit.
I couldn't agree more, which is why you've never seen the koha lists used as a marketing tool for LibLime. We always point folks to http://koha.org/support/pay.html if they are looking for commercial support on-list.
I don't administer the page at the moment, but my "criteria" for adding people/companies in the more recent past has been that you had to demonstrate a working Koha to me that you were actually supporting. Just having the skills to do it on paper wasn't enough. I've had a lot of queries from companies wanting to be listed who haven't (that I'm aware of) contributed to the lists/ support or the code base but would like to say they are the contacts for their particular region/country. My reasoning in saying they have to have a working copy of koha up and running, is that in good conscience I don't think we can recommend a company for commercial support who hasn't actually setup and run or supported a Koha site (even their own) before. They can of course put on their own websites that they offer Koha support etc. In the first year or so of Koha that wasn't the criteria - because no one other than Katipo had that experience, so we listed people and companies who were involved in the project. If we need some criteria for getting a listing put on the page then demonstrating a working copy of Koha would be my base level. Cheers Rachel (Kaitiaki) -- ----------------------------- Rachel Hamilton-Williams General Manager Katipo Communications Ltd Phone: +64-4-934 1285 Mobile: 021 389 128 E-mail: rachel@katipo.co.nz Web: www.katipo.co.nz
participants (10)
-
Ballou, Matthew -
David Schuster -
elizabeth -
John Springer -
Joshua Ferraro -
Matt Burkhardt -
MJ Ray -
Paul POULAIN -
Rachel Hamilton-Williams -
Rick Welykochy