Well, yes, that's my point really. By the simple definition given in the CoC every comment on the enumerated items is harassing. "Harassment includes...comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion." Greg On 09/26/2014 03:05 PM, Riley Childs wrote:
Overly broad? You can harass without knowing it, you are taking I in the literal sense that every comment is harssing.
Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: glaws <mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 3:50 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz <mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
I have some concerns about the Koha Community Code of Conduct posted here:
http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/ <http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/>
My specific concern is the second bullet point:
Harassment includes, but is not limited to:
* ---snip--- * Verbal, graphic or written comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion
which seems overly broad.
Examples
If, during a conference breaking for lunch, I say to a group of attendees "I'm Buddhist, is there a vegetarian restaurant near here?", I would seem to have violated this point (verbal...comment...religion).
Or if I'm a presenter, and I make a comment for illustrative purposes, like "Just as people come in all sizes, libraries also vary in size and Koha is great for all of them", have I violated the code?
Or if I'm with a group of attendees planning on going out somewhere, and I say "I have <insert any health problem>, and I can't walk with you that far", is that a violation?
I would like to suggest that the wording for this particular point include something to the effect that the references must be obviously negative in nature or perhaps intended to give offense to to an average person _based_on_some_reasonable_standard_.
-- Greg Lawson
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Greg Lawson Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 1912 N. Belt Highway St. Joseph, MO 64506 816-232-5479 x2303
In your opinion, how should it read? Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ________________________________ From: glaws<mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 4:17 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz<mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: Re: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct Well, yes, that's my point really. By the simple definition given in the CoC every comment on the enumerated items is harassing. "Harassment includes...comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion." Greg On 09/26/2014 03:05 PM, Riley Childs wrote:
Overly broad? You can harass without knowing it, you are taking I in the literal sense that every comment is harssing.
Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: glaws <mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 3:50 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz <mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
I have some concerns about the Koha Community Code of Conduct posted here:
http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/ <http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/>
My specific concern is the second bullet point:
Harassment includes, but is not limited to:
* ---snip--- * Verbal, graphic or written comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion
which seems overly broad.
Examples
If, during a conference breaking for lunch, I say to a group of attendees "I'm Buddhist, is there a vegetarian restaurant near here?", I would seem to have violated this point (verbal...comment...religion).
Or if I'm a presenter, and I make a comment for illustrative purposes, like "Just as people come in all sizes, libraries also vary in size and Koha is great for all of them", have I violated the code?
Or if I'm with a group of attendees planning on going out somewhere, and I say "I have <insert any health problem>, and I can't walk with you that far", is that a violation?
I would like to suggest that the wording for this particular point include something to the effect that the references must be obviously negative in nature or perhaps intended to give offense to to an average person _based_on_some_reasonable_standard_.
-- Greg Lawson
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Greg Lawson Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 1912 N. Belt Highway St. Joseph, MO 64506 816-232-5479 x2303 _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Hi, Looking at the current model code of conduct on the Geek Feminism wiki [1], I would suggest amending the sentence in question to: "Verbal, graphic or written comments that reinforce social structures of domination related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion." The entire clause from the sample code of conduct that this draws from is: "Harassment includes verbal comments that reinforce social structures of domination [related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, age, religion, [your specific concern here]], sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately." Greg: would this address your concerns? [1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy Regards, Galen On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Riley Childs <rchilds@cucawarriors.com> wrote:
In your opinion, how should it read? Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ________________________________ From: glaws<mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 4:17 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz<mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: Re: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
Well, yes, that's my point really. By the simple definition given in the CoC every comment on the enumerated items is harassing.
"Harassment includes...comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion."
Greg
On 09/26/2014 03:05 PM, Riley Childs wrote:
Overly broad? You can harass without knowing it, you are taking I in the literal sense that every comment is harssing.
Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: glaws <mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 3:50 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz <mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
I have some concerns about the Koha Community Code of Conduct posted here:
http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/ <http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/>
My specific concern is the second bullet point:
Harassment includes, but is not limited to:
* ---snip--- * Verbal, graphic or written comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion
which seems overly broad.
Examples
If, during a conference breaking for lunch, I say to a group of attendees "I'm Buddhist, is there a vegetarian restaurant near here?", I would seem to have violated this point (verbal...comment...religion).
Or if I'm a presenter, and I make a comment for illustrative purposes, like "Just as people come in all sizes, libraries also vary in size and Koha is great for all of them", have I violated the code?
Or if I'm with a group of attendees planning on going out somewhere, and I say "I have <insert any health problem>, and I can't walk with you that far", is that a violation?
I would like to suggest that the wording for this particular point include something to the effect that the references must be obviously negative in nature or perhaps intended to give offense to to an average person _based_on_some_reasonable_standard_.
-- Greg Lawson
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Greg Lawson Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 1912 N. Belt Highway St. Joseph, MO 64506 816-232-5479 x2303
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Galen Charlton Manager of Implementation Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts email: gmc@esilibrary.com direct: +1 770-709-5581 cell: +1 404-984-4366 skype: gmcharlt web: http://www.esilibrary.com/ Supporting Koha and Evergreen: http://koha-community.org & http://evergreen-ils.org
Galen: My concern is that currently any passing comment like those in my original post could be construed as harassing. I rather suspect that any censure by a conference committee in the United States for me saying "I'm Buddist, I want to eat at a vegetarian restaurant" or "I'm Muslim, I will miss the Friday afternoon session because I go to the mosque then." would be grounds for legal action based on freedom of speech rights. (I realize this may not be the case in other countries). Indeed, as I recall (probably not well), at the last KohaCon in Reno, Nevada, a presenter mentioned that a broad range of individuals, including a monk and the speaker himself, an athiest, had contributed code to Koha. (Apologies if I didn't get that quite right). I believe that speech was completely acceptable. Any wording that indicates that harassing speech or behavior must be negative in some connotation is fine with me. It certainly doesn't need to be too lengthy. Greg As an aside, and not to clutter up the main point, I wonder about the "social structures of domination" wording below. It certainly seems to me that there could be a great deal of bias, discrimination and harassment not relating to "social structures of domination". Maybe some law library librarians reading this could say if that wording is in the law lexicon. ----------------------------------- On 09/26/2014 03:29 PM, Galen Charlton wrote:
Hi,
Looking at the current model code of conduct on the Geek Feminism wiki [1], I would suggest amending the sentence in question to:
"Verbal, graphic or written comments that reinforce social structures of domination related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion."
The entire clause from the sample code of conduct that this draws from is:
"Harassment includes verbal comments that reinforce social structures of domination [related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, age, religion, [your specific concern here]], sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately."
Greg: would this address your concerns?
[1] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
Regards,
Galen
On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Riley Childs <rchilds@cucawarriors.com> wrote:
In your opinion, how should it read? Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ________________________________ From: glaws<mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 4:17 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz<mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: Re: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
Well, yes, that's my point really. By the simple definition given in the CoC every comment on the enumerated items is harassing.
"Harassment includes...comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion."
Greg
On 09/26/2014 03:05 PM, Riley Childs wrote:
Overly broad? You can harass without knowing it, you are taking I in the literal sense that every comment is harssing.
Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: glaws <mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 3:50 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz <mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
I have some concerns about the Koha Community Code of Conduct posted here:
http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/ <http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/>
My specific concern is the second bullet point:
Harassment includes, but is not limited to:
* ---snip--- * Verbal, graphic or written comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion
which seems overly broad.
Examples
If, during a conference breaking for lunch, I say to a group of attendees "I'm Buddhist, is there a vegetarian restaurant near here?", I would seem to have violated this point (verbal...comment...religion).
Or if I'm a presenter, and I make a comment for illustrative purposes, like "Just as people come in all sizes, libraries also vary in size and Koha is great for all of them", have I violated the code?
Or if I'm with a group of attendees planning on going out somewhere, and I say "I have <insert any health problem>, and I can't walk with you that far", is that a violation?
I would like to suggest that the wording for this particular point include something to the effect that the references must be obviously negative in nature or perhaps intended to give offense to to an average person _based_on_some_reasonable_standard_.
-- Greg Lawson
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha -- Greg Lawson Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 1912 N. Belt Highway St. Joseph, MO 64506 816-232-5479 x2303
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Greg Lawson Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 1912 N. Belt Highway St. Joseph, MO 64506 816-232-5479 x2303
Simply as a suggestion, something like the following could be modified to fit the Koha CoC needs: "speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech "..."hate speech," which is defined as utterances, displays, or expressions of racial, religious, or sexual bias" http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Inciting,+Provocative,+or+Offe... "Harassment includes _offensive_ verbal _comments_ related to gender, sexual orientation, disability..." #note "offensive" https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ "harassment may be broadly understood to consist of unwarranted behaviour towards another person,...by such means as single or successive acts of bullying, verbally or physically abusing, or ill-treating him or her.... Forms of harassment covered by this code include harassment relating to another’s sex (including gender reassignment), sexual orientation, religion, race, or disability." http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/other-policies/code-of-practice-on-harassment/ Greg ------------------------------ On 09/26/2014 03:19 PM, Riley Childs wrote:
In your opinion, how should it read? Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: glaws <mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 4:17 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz <mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: Re: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
Well, yes, that's my point really. By the simple definition given in the CoC every comment on the enumerated items is harassing.
"Harassment includes...comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion."
Greg
On 09/26/2014 03:05 PM, Riley Childs wrote:
Overly broad? You can harass without knowing it, you are taking I in the literal sense that every comment is harssing.
Riley Childs Senior Charlotte United Christian Academy Library Services Administrator IT Services (704) 497-2086 rileychilds.net @rowdychildren ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: glaws <mailto:glawson@rhcl.org> Sent: 9/26/2014 3:50 PM To: koha@lists.katipo.co.nz <mailto:koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Subject: [Koha] Comment: Koha Community Code of Conduct
I have some concerns about the Koha Community Code of Conduct posted here:
http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/ <http://koha-community.org/about/policy/code-of-conduct/>
My specific concern is the second bullet point:
Harassment includes, but is not limited to:
* ---snip--- * Verbal, graphic or written comments related to gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race or religion
which seems overly broad.
Examples
If, during a conference breaking for lunch, I say to a group of attendees "I'm Buddhist, is there a vegetarian restaurant near here?", I would seem to have violated this point (verbal...comment...religion).
Or if I'm a presenter, and I make a comment for illustrative purposes, like "Just as people come in all sizes, libraries also vary in size and Koha is great for all of them", have I violated the code?
Or if I'm with a group of attendees planning on going out somewhere, and I say "I have <insert any health problem>, and I can't walk with you that far", is that a violation?
I would like to suggest that the wording for this particular point include something to the effect that the references must be obviously negative in nature or perhaps intended to give offense to to an average person _based_on_some_reasonable_standard_.
-- Greg Lawson
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Greg Lawson Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 1912 N. Belt Highway St. Joseph, MO 64506 816-232-5479 x2303
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz http://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
-- Greg Lawson Rolling Hills Consolidated Library 1912 N. Belt Highway St. Joseph, MO 64506 816-232-5479 x2303
participants (3)
-
Galen Charlton -
glaws -
Riley Childs