Use of indicators in field 245
Hi fellow Koha users, Just a quick question. Can someone shed a light on the use of the indicators in field 245? Since our conversion to Koha we stopped using them, but data from previous systems has these indicators filled in. Upon inspection, in most cases the given value is even wrong somehow (0's are 1's etc.). But it doesn't seem to affect indexation. So my question is, is there no need to fill in the indicators of field 245? Do you guys use them? For what purpose? For the sake of exhaustivity: we are currently using version 18.11.06.000 Thanks in advance for any replies. Kind regards, Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be>
I'd need to check the index file, but normally ind2's use is to skip the first X characters when ordering. Ex to skip "The" at the beginning of a title. Philippe Blouin, Directeur de la technologie Tél. : (833) 465-4276, poste 230 philippe.blouin@inLibro.com <mailto:philippe.blouin@inLibro.com> inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com <http://www.inLibro.com> On 2019-09-18 3:06 a.m., Giacomo Visini wrote:
Hi fellow Koha users,
Just a quick question. Can someone shed a light on the use of the indicators in field 245? Since our conversion to Koha we stopped using them, but data from previous systems has these indicators filled in. Upon inspection, in most cases the given value is even wrong somehow (0's are 1's etc.). But it doesn't seem to affect indexation.
So my question is, is there no need to fill in the indicators of field 245? Do you guys use them? For what purpose?
For the sake of exhaustivity: we are currently using version 18.11.06.000
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Kind regards,
Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be>
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Hi Philippe, Thanks for the reply! The second indicator in field 245, according to the MARC 21 rules, should indeed be used to skip possible articles (i.e. The, Le, La, Les, De, Het, etc.) when indexing. But in Koha, or in our case anyway, these indicators don’t seem to be working. Most of our records have the indicators filled in, but it doesn’t affect indexation. No characters are skipped, even if the second indicator is filled in. So my question is: what’s the point of filling in these indicators, if they don’t do what they are supposed to do? Are there any libraries in the Koha community who use the indicators of 245? And do the indicators do what they’re supposed to do? Again, thank you for any reply. Kind regards, Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be> Van: Philippe Blouin <philippe.blouin@inlibro.com> Verzonden: woensdag 18 september 2019 14:36 Aan: Giacomo Visini <Giacomo.VISINI@divaantwerp.be>; koha <koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Onderwerp: Re: [Koha] Use of indicators in field 245 I'd need to check the index file, but normally ind2's use is to skip the first X characters when ordering. Ex to skip "The" at the beginning of a title. Philippe Blouin, Directeur de la technologie Tél. : (833) 465-4276, poste 230 philippe.blouin@inLibro.com<mailto:philippe.blouin@inLibro.com> inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com<http://www.inLibro.com> On 2019-09-18 3:06 a.m., Giacomo Visini wrote: Hi fellow Koha users, Just a quick question. Can someone shed a light on the use of the indicators in field 245? Since our conversion to Koha we stopped using them, but data from previous systems has these indicators filled in. Upon inspection, in most cases the given value is even wrong somehow (0's are 1's etc.). But it doesn't seem to affect indexation. So my question is, is there no need to fill in the indicators of field 245? Do you guys use them? For what purpose? For the sake of exhaustivity: we are currently using version 18.11.06.000 Thanks in advance for any replies. Kind regards, Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be><mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be><mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be> _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz<mailto:Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> https://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Hi Giacomo, You're right that the second indicator, nonfiling characters, doesn't really seem to do anything. It's an archaic holdover and probably not needed with the complicated indexing mechanisms that are available to us now. It's pretty trivial for machines to skip leading stopwords like "the" etc. without instruction. The first indicator is still meaningful, I believe. Having a main entry under one of the 1XX fields and then a title added entry is enabled by this indicator. So following this example documentation <https://www.itsmarc.com/crs/mergedprojects/conser/conser/module_7_4__ccm.htm> I found: 111 2# $a Federal Management Improvement Conference. 245 10 $a Proceedings of the Federal Management Improvement Conference. The "title" of the serial is the name of the conference and the 245 is used as an added entry. I'm not a cataloger so the function of a title added entry isn't entirely clear to me but a lot (about half) of our records have this indicator set to 1. So our records still use both indicators, however we mainly copy catalog. It makes sense to keep using the fields especially when it's free like this. Just because they don't have a lot of importance in Koha doesn't mean another system won't care about them and it makes the data more consistent with other MARC repositories. Best, ERIC PHETTEPLACE Systems Librarian (he/him) ephetteplace@cca.edu | o 510.594.3660 5212 Broadway | Oakland, CA | 94618 :(){ :|: & };: On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 12:07 AM Giacomo Visini < Giacomo.VISINI@divaantwerp.be> wrote:
Hi fellow Koha users,
Just a quick question. Can someone shed a light on the use of the indicators in field 245? Since our conversion to Koha we stopped using them, but data from previous systems has these indicators filled in. Upon inspection, in most cases the given value is even wrong somehow (0's are 1's etc.). But it doesn't seem to affect indexation.
So my question is, is there no need to fill in the indicators of field 245? Do you guys use them? For what purpose?
For the sake of exhaustivity: we are currently using version 18.11.06.000
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Kind regards,
Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be>
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Hello Eric, Thank you for the clear reply! So it still might be worth using the indicators. It is something I’ll have to speak about with my colleagues 😊 Cheers, Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be><mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be>> Van: Eric Phetteplace <ephetteplace@cca.edu> Verzonden: woensdag 18 september 2019 18:55 Aan: Giacomo Visini <Giacomo.VISINI@divaantwerp.be> CC: koha <koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> Onderwerp: Re: [Koha] Use of indicators in field 245 Hi Giacomo, You're right that the second indicator, nonfiling characters, doesn't really seem to do anything. It's an archaic holdover and probably not needed with the complicated indexing mechanisms that are available to us now. It's pretty trivial for machines to skip leading stopwords like "the" etc. without instruction. The first indicator is still meaningful, I believe. Having a main entry under one of the 1XX fields and then a title added entry is enabled by this indicator. So following this example documentation<https://www.itsmarc.com/crs/mergedprojects/conser/conser/module_7_4__ccm.htm> I found: 111 2# $a Federal Management Improvement Conference. 245 10 $a Proceedings of the Federal Management Improvement Conference. The "title" of the serial is the name of the conference and the 245 is used as an added entry. I'm not a cataloger so the function of a title added entry isn't entirely clear to me but a lot (about half) of our records have this indicator set to 1. So our records still use both indicators, however we mainly copy catalog. It makes sense to keep using the fields especially when it's free like this. Just because they don't have a lot of importance in Koha doesn't mean another system won't care about them and it makes the data more consistent with other MARC repositories. Best, ERIC PHETTEPLACE Systems Librarian (he/him) ephetteplace@cca.edu<mailto:ephetteplace@cca.edu> | o 510.594.3660 [https://www.cca.edu/sites/default/files/images/cca-logotype-394.png] 5212 Broadway | Oakland, CA | 94618 :(){ :|: & };: On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 12:07 AM Giacomo Visini <Giacomo.VISINI@divaantwerp.be<mailto:Giacomo.VISINI@divaantwerp.be>> wrote: Hi fellow Koha users, Just a quick question. Can someone shed a light on the use of the indicators in field 245? Since our conversion to Koha we stopped using them, but data from previous systems has these indicators filled in. Upon inspection, in most cases the given value is even wrong somehow (0's are 1's etc.). But it doesn't seem to affect indexation. So my question is, is there no need to fill in the indicators of field 245? Do you guys use them? For what purpose? For the sake of exhaustivity: we are currently using version 18.11.06.000 Thanks in advance for any replies. Kind regards, Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be><mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be>> _______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz<mailto:Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz> https://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
Hi, Even if leadign article or other nonfiling characters can be handled pretty well in modern search engines, it's worth noting that it's not so straight-forward for sorting or any left-anchored searches. Like you mentioned, we should always keep in mind that MARC records can be exchanged between systems, and not all are created equal. In my experience any deviation from standards comes back to bite you at the latest when you switch systems. Regards, Ere Eric Phetteplace kirjoitti 18.9.2019 klo 19.55:
Hi Giacomo,
You're right that the second indicator, nonfiling characters, doesn't really seem to do anything. It's an archaic holdover and probably not needed with the complicated indexing mechanisms that are available to us now. It's pretty trivial for machines to skip leading stopwords like "the" etc. without instruction.
The first indicator is still meaningful, I believe. Having a main entry under one of the 1XX fields and then a title added entry is enabled by this indicator. So following this example documentation <https://www.itsmarc.com/crs/mergedprojects/conser/conser/module_7_4__ccm.htm> I found:
111 2# $a Federal Management Improvement Conference. 245 10 $a Proceedings of the Federal Management Improvement Conference.
The "title" of the serial is the name of the conference and the 245 is used as an added entry. I'm not a cataloger so the function of a title added entry isn't entirely clear to me but a lot (about half) of our records have this indicator set to 1.
So our records still use both indicators, however we mainly copy catalog. It makes sense to keep using the fields especially when it's free like this. Just because they don't have a lot of importance in Koha doesn't mean another system won't care about them and it makes the data more consistent with other MARC repositories.
Best,
ERIC PHETTEPLACE Systems Librarian (he/him)
ephetteplace@cca.edu | o 510.594.3660
5212 Broadway | Oakland, CA | 94618
:(){ :|: & };:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 12:07 AM Giacomo Visini < Giacomo.VISINI@divaantwerp.be> wrote:
Hi fellow Koha users,
Just a quick question. Can someone shed a light on the use of the indicators in field 245? Since our conversion to Koha we stopped using them, but data from previous systems has these indicators filled in. Upon inspection, in most cases the given value is even wrong somehow (0's are 1's etc.). But it doesn't seem to affect indexation.
So my question is, is there no need to fill in the indicators of field 245? Do you guys use them? For what purpose?
For the sake of exhaustivity: we are currently using version 18.11.06.000
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Kind regards,
Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be>
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz https://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
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-- Ere Maijala Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland
Hi, I remembered a bug report relating to this: *Bug 14332* <https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14332> - Skip title articles on Opac using ind2 of tag 245 (MARC21 only) Koha uses the second indicator for sorting by title. Katrin On 20.09.19 09:08, Ere Maijala wrote:
Hi,
Even if leadign article or other nonfiling characters can be handled pretty well in modern search engines, it's worth noting that it's not so straight-forward for sorting or any left-anchored searches. Like you mentioned, we should always keep in mind that MARC records can be exchanged between systems, and not all are created equal. In my experience any deviation from standards comes back to bite you at the latest when you switch systems.
Regards, Ere
Eric Phetteplace kirjoitti 18.9.2019 klo 19.55:
Hi Giacomo,
You're right that the second indicator, nonfiling characters, doesn't really seem to do anything. It's an archaic holdover and probably not needed with the complicated indexing mechanisms that are available to us now. It's pretty trivial for machines to skip leading stopwords like "the" etc. without instruction.
The first indicator is still meaningful, I believe. Having a main entry under one of the 1XX fields and then a title added entry is enabled by this indicator. So following this example documentation <https://www.itsmarc.com/crs/mergedprojects/conser/conser/module_7_4__ccm.htm> I found:
111 2# $a Federal Management Improvement Conference. 245 10 $a Proceedings of the Federal Management Improvement Conference.
The "title" of the serial is the name of the conference and the 245 is used as an added entry. I'm not a cataloger so the function of a title added entry isn't entirely clear to me but a lot (about half) of our records have this indicator set to 1.
So our records still use both indicators, however we mainly copy catalog. It makes sense to keep using the fields especially when it's free like this. Just because they don't have a lot of importance in Koha doesn't mean another system won't care about them and it makes the data more consistent with other MARC repositories.
Best,
ERIC PHETTEPLACE Systems Librarian (he/him)
ephetteplace@cca.edu | o 510.594.3660
5212 Broadway | Oakland, CA | 94618
:(){ :|: & };:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 12:07 AM Giacomo Visini < Giacomo.VISINI@divaantwerp.be> wrote:
Hi fellow Koha users,
Just a quick question. Can someone shed a light on the use of the indicators in field 245? Since our conversion to Koha we stopped using them, but data from previous systems has these indicators filled in. Upon inspection, in most cases the given value is even wrong somehow (0's are 1's etc.). But it doesn't seem to affect indexation.
So my question is, is there no need to fill in the indicators of field 245? Do you guys use them? For what purpose?
For the sake of exhaustivity: we are currently using version 18.11.06.000
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Kind regards,
Giacomo Visini I Bibliotheekmedewerker DIVA, Antwerp Home of Diamonds Gildekamersstraat 9, B-2000 Antwerpen T + 32 3 360 52 42 giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be<mailto:giacomo.visini@divaantwerp.be>
_______________________________________________ Koha mailing list http://koha-community.org Koha@lists.katipo.co.nz https://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha
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participants (5)
-
Ere Maijala -
Eric Phetteplace -
Giacomo Visini -
Katrin Fischer -
Philippe Blouin